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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.25.2014 , 09:55 PM | #621
Quote: Originally Posted by Silenceo View Post
Question: Is it possible, *considering how powerful that communication ship is apparently* that we could look into the DS fleet numbers again? If we go by the recent number *4500* then that bumps it from 3% to 4.4% but, i still feel that it seems...off...Don't get me wrong, i like stronger ships vs the superior numbers argument, no really I do. But these recent numbers just feel...wrong... for lack of a better word. If I recall correctly Black Sun's whole thing when it came to naval warfare was simply to outnumber and outmaneuver their enemies. Yet, if we go by the comparison that you stated earlier for the 1 Interceptor = 1 Nebulon B *according to EaW anyways* then that seems to unbalance it all. Granted, if it was the original Black Sun navy it likely would have superior pilots and would push on that way, but since they all are droids...*btw, what fighters are we using? Z-95 relics? Vultures? Other?*

If we were to assume that 1 = a Nebulon B/Interceptor, then the numbers would likely be close to this in terms of estimated strength when comparing fleets. Without calculating the Imperial Communications ship due to not sure how much it has exactly, between an ISD and a SSD is...well...its a large gap.

1 Executor-class Star Dreadnought - 400 *100x more firepower than ISD*
1 Imperial communications ship - ?
3 Imperial-II class Star Destroyers - 15 *20% stronger than MK I*
4 Imperial-I class Star Destroyers - 16
1 Tector-class Star Destroyer - 5
1 Victory-I class Star Destroyer - 2
1 Immobilizer 418 cruiser - 1
36 Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers - 36
2 Strike-class medium cruisers - 2
5 Carrack-class light cruisers - 2

Total 477
Without Executor 77

Considering that the DS has aproximately

12 Venator-class cruisers - 24 *maybe 48 if including fighter compliments*
70 Interceptor-class frigates - 70
118 Gozanti-class cruisers - 30 *hard to calculate these ones, so rough guess*

Total 124-148

Sounds fairly uneven no matter how we slice that. If the Executor is not present and the DS fleet meets the rest of the fleet, including the Communications Ship, it is likely a fairly even battle. However, even if it was the entire DS navy against the Executor, by these numbers they wouldn't even drop its shields... But, if the DS fleet was to get buffed it would be overpowered because then if the Executor is not present then the AE loses a concentrated battle due to numbers. I am not sure of how to proceed concerning this, though I would recommend looking at the Executor again. Even in the current form, without the Executor, the AE would fair well due to it would take more concentration by the DS to lower the number of the AE *due to its power being more focused in less vessels.* Yet, you can't just remove the Flagship.

I know that at the very least the DS should be forced to still play like it usually does, and that is as pirates, but being unable to do anything even against the Executor alone makes it impossible for them to do so.

The formal military *AE* should always be able to win 1-1 ratio, but I am unsure what a fair ratio would be in this match due to such a large portion of the AE strength being unable to be divided into smaller pieces.

Edit: Even then, we would have to remember to factor in fighters, which I am not even 100% sure how we reached the current fighter numbers for the DS. Though, Fighters/bombers might just be what could be used for the balancing act if we were to do it right.

Side Note: It should be considered however that these numbers are not taking into account the fact that Interceptors have proton torpedo launchers which likely could be used to take out shields/shield generators rapidly due to how many they as a fleet would have, aimed at a relatively small amount of enemy vessels. *ISD, VD's, Communication ship, and Executor all have fairly exposed generators* Should also be noted Strike Class Cruisers were extremely weak against shield penetrating weaponry due to their tendency to shake apart from the modular design, which is considered their greatest strength.
Just some notes I am possitive the Victories could be Nebula's 3:1 and the Dreadnaught beat the Nebula's 2-1. And Venator's would be 2:1 WITH compliment not with out if you compare a Victory with a Venator you will see the Victory actually out guns the Venator but it does not have the same compliment. I can link several sources that say the Victory and the Venator were on even terms but the Venator was prefered for more fighters over the Victories more Firepower which would change with Palp's new order prefering warships with more fire power over more fighters.

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
03.25.2014 , 10:03 PM | #622
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Any instances in which she's allowed genocide to happen?

P.S. I think you are exaggerating the arguments made by the opposition... grossly.
Quote: Originally Posted by Silenceo View Post

-If Guri's attack should fail, threaten civilian lives
-Mothma, refusing to live an immoral life, gives herself over for execution to save her people
-Untouched by her sentiment, GO-TO finishes the Kaggath by cleansing the galaxy of organics
Did I misread that then?

And Krytos Virus comes to mind, and reborn Plaps. Yet she never even considered giving in to Isard or Sidious despite the destruction they were ravaging. How about Thrawn? Did she back down despite his siege of Coruscant? Millions were dying from lack of supplies but she held firm.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.25.2014 , 10:04 PM | #623
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
OK I've updated the fleet compositions based on Tunewalker's suggestions and some of my own observations. Remember however that these are not totally accurate guidelines, firepower in particular is just to give a general sense.

Anyway your mistaken concerning a few things Tune:

  1. There are only 33 not 35 IMPs, and a few of them are in both fleets, we don't count duplicates.

  2. We cannot assume concerning the Carracks, we only have record of 22 so we can only assume there are 22. Thrawn took whatever he had and didn't likely have the liberty to equip every IMP with an equal escort.

  3. We round to the nearest whole number, unless that number is 0. then you round up.

  4. Its highly unlikely that the Dreadnaughts were of the upgraded model considering Thrawn acquired the lost Katana fleet which were deployed early on. Wookiee records the upgrades as coming after.

  5. You are missing quite a lot concerning the Supremacy fleets but I expect you didn't:

    • Take into account the point-defense cannons are anti-capital ship weaponry i.e. these. They are designed for closer range but they pack just as a standard turbolaser cannon.

    • That we are using the Nebulon-B as a base class for the Interceptors considering Empire at War's inaccurate information. The proton torpedoes however remain static and carry over.

Anyway I hope that clears everything up, I'd rather not get bogged down in a debate about this.
Also concering number 3.

Thrawn fleet 3 Victories. thats .6 rounded goes to 1 Victory.

Death squad 1 Victory, thats .1 rounded would be 0 but as you said round up as it would end up being zero that is 1. That means a Total of 2 Victory classes in the fleet. We count the numbers of each fleet seperate and THEN combine them, that was the point of the 1/5th instead of the 1/10th. so your new numbers are missing a few ship AT LEAST in the AE wise. Same deal with the Immobillizer's there should be 2.

and I just noticed we are missing http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ilthmar%27s_Fist which I am pretty sure was one of these http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imper..._Battlecruiser

Silenceo's Avatar


Silenceo
03.25.2014 , 11:10 PM | #624
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
OK I've updated the fleet compositions based on Tunewalker's suggestions and some of my own observations. Remember however that these are not totally accurate guidelines, firepower in particular is just to give a general sense.

Anyway your mistaken concerning a few things Tune:

  1. There are only 33 not 35 IMPs, and a few of them are in both fleets, we don't count duplicates.

  2. We cannot assume concerning the Carracks, we only have record of 22 so we can only assume there are 22. Thrawn took whatever he had and didn't likely have the liberty to equip every IMP with an equal escort.

  3. We round to the nearest whole number, unless that number is 0. then you round up.

  4. Its highly unlikely that the Dreadnaughts were of the upgraded model considering Thrawn acquired the lost Katana fleet which were deployed early on. Wookiee records the upgrades as coming after.

  5. You are missing quite a lot concerning the Supremacy fleets but I expect you didn't:

    • Take into account the point-defense cannons are anti-capital ship weaponry i.e. these. They are designed for closer range but they pack just as a standard turbolaser cannon.

    • That we are using the Nebulon-B as a base class for the Interceptors considering Empire at War's inaccurate information. The proton torpedoes however remain static and carry over.

Anyway I hope that clears everything up, I'd rather not get bogged down in a debate about this.
For number 5 does that the Proton Torpedos will pierce shields and be able to impact directly on the hull of the target vessel? *I assume that is game mechanics, but just wanted to clarify.*i
"What I unveil today will mark a new era for the Empire. We will be able to decimate the Rebels just as we did the Jedi Knights. At last the Emperor's war will be filled only with the glory and beauty of decisive victory."―Rom Mohc Never force a droid to think without numbers...

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.26.2014 , 06:08 AM | #625
OK guys concerning the numbers I provided and the rules surrounding them they are final, Silenceo I'm not sure what your complaint actually is and I don't know why you are coming up with differing numbers but if you want to know which numbers I am going to use when making the final decisions look to those provided.

I'm not interesting in getting into a discussion concerning this and having rules dictated to me so lets just move on.

P.S. Tune, these are not anti-starfighter cannons they are anti-ship cannons. With the term "laser cannon" referring to anything between blaster size to the guns on an AT-AT. Clearly these pack a turbolaser punch, they are massive.

That and they are slow moving, and clearly would be useless against fighters positioned inside the ship.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.26.2014 , 06:17 AM | #626
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Did I misread that then?

And Krytos Virus comes to mind, and reborn Plaps. Yet she never even considered giving in to Isard or Sidious despite the destruction they were ravaging. How about Thrawn? Did she back down despite his siege of Coruscant? Millions were dying from lack of supplies but she held firm.
I was referring to the bizarre notion that the underworld will somehow be a vanguard for invading planets, as far as I'm aware they are a mere distraction and chaos causer.

Nor do I expect the underworld to be acquiring top secret military information, but simply the movements/makeup of their fleets quite clearly visible in orbit by passing vessels and perhaps the location etc. of important buildings and facilities if also visible. They are not some kind of super-intelligence force, just eyes.

But yeah, Mothma was never given a way out was she? Did Isard offer an antidote? Did Reborn Palps offer to stop his attack? Did Thrawn give Mothma a chance to surrender? Did Mothma have reason to believe doing so would save countless lives, where countless immediate lives even at stake? And since when is she the be all and end all?

I mean G0-T0 appears on the Holo and threatens to obliterate a planet if she doesn't surrender and Mothma's just like, "fine, do it." What if he gets a frightened mother to plead her case? Sorry lady I don't give a damn about you or the billions of others on that planet, my life is totally more important than you insignificant plebs.

I thought Mothma was supposed to be the good guy... and what about the Jedi, genocide in their code now?

EDIT: Anyway this is under the assumption that there is somehow nothing Mothma could do to stop them and G0-T0 would ultimately be bluffing as I doubt he would cause so much damage to a planet.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.26.2014 , 06:23 AM | #627
Quote: Originally Posted by Silenceo View Post
For number 5 does that the Proton Torpedos will pierce shields and be able to impact directly on the hull of the target vessel? *I assume that is game mechanics, but just wanted to clarify.*i
Proton torpedos are physical projectiles so like missles they bypass standard shields (this is why they used them to blow up the Death Star) so yes it would. But not on the Executor as that has particle shields.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.26.2014 , 06:45 AM | #628
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
OK guys concerning the numbers I provided and the rules surrounding them they are final, Silenceo I'm not sure what your complaint actually is and I don't know why you are coming up with differing numbers but if you want to know which numbers I am going to use when making the final decisions look to those provided.

I'm not interesting in getting into a discussion concerning this and having rules dictated to me so lets just move on.

P.S. Tune, these are not anti-starfighter cannons they are anti-ship cannons. With the term "laser cannon" referring to anything between blaster size to the guns on an AT-AT. Clearly these pack a turbolaser punch, they are massive.

That and they are slow moving, and clearly would be useless against fighters positioned inside the ship.

P.P.S Silenceo what exactly are those figures referring to? I'm deeply confused.
You know a foot down like that just means in my mind the results being completely invalidated. If you dont want a debate, then dont have a debate just say what the 2 factions can and cant do and which you think will win and be done with it.

On the P.S

"A point-defense cannon was a kind of fast-tracking starship emplacement, typically laser cannons or ion cannons, that were used to defend large starships against smaller starfighters. Point-defense cannons were also used to defend against missiles."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Point-defense_cannon

no they arent turbo lasers no they are not meant for capital ship to capital ship fights they are meant to clean off fighters from you as well as defend against projectiles......... /debate.

Edit: we are supposed to use these forums for Knowledge and defense, if we wish to not debate these points and remain ignorant I feel we do a diservice to the entire Kaggath. Much knowledge has already been shed how much more is lost by saying no more.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.26.2014 , 07:19 AM | #629
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
You know a foot down like that just means in my mind the results being completely invalidated. If you dont want a debate, then dont have a debate just say what the 2 factions can and cant do and which you think will win and be done with it.

On the P.S

"A point-defense cannon was a kind of fast-tracking starship emplacement, typically laser cannons or ion cannons, that were used to defend large starships against smaller starfighters. Point-defense cannons were also used to defend against missiles."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Point-defense_cannon

no they arent turbo lasers no they are not meant for capital ship to capital ship fights they are meant to clean off fighters from you as well as defend against projectiles......... /debate.
Its your opinion unfortunately, not fact. In such cases there is always going to be disagreement. And my role as Arbiter is not to appease people's opinions.

Concerning the cannons, unfortunately they do not resemble that description in anyway. They are slow, not fast tracking, and positioned inside the hull would be completely useless at defending against starfighters which would simply attack from above. Indeed there have been several particular instances in the Clone Wars such as the Battle of Ryloth were Venators have found themselves completely exposed to starfighters and unable to fight back.

On top of that we have seen these cannons, the guns of which if anything are larger than the standard turbolaser, be used in close quarters anti-ship fire, and ended up crippling their opponents. And being positioned inside the hull they would only be of use in a flanking maneuver against an enemy warship, never against fighters.

The talk pages on the Venator are also in general agreement that those particular cannons are turbolasers and it is highly possible that the source could have been using laser cannon as short hand which is not uncommon. And point-defense is a valid description considering they are limited in terms of range and scope.

All in all you're going to need something aside from an unsourced Wookiee quote, preferably some practical evidence, to back up your claim if you want your argument to be valid, because right now it makes little logical sense.

But anyway, if we are using Wookiepeedia, it also says this on turbolasers:

Because these weapons required extra time to build up energy for their powerful blasts, they tended to have a slightly slower rate of fire than their weaker brethren (usually around one to two seconds between volleys, depending on the type of turbolaser and what power setting it was on).

Its quite obvious from this clip that those cannons fire at a slow rate, probably more like three to four seconds.

Regardless I'd rather not get bogged down in facts and figures, they exist, and its quite obvious that if a Venator flanked one of the enemies ships it could deal some significant damage with those heavy cannons.

Silenceo's Avatar


Silenceo
03.26.2014 , 07:31 AM | #630
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Proton torpedos are physical projectiles so like missles they bypass standard shields (this is why they used them to blow up the Death Star) so yes it would. But not on the Executor as that has particle shields.
Wait wait wait...wouldn't that mean that the debate we had forever ago where you had mass drivers...wouldn't have had them pierce the Lusankya's Shields? *sister ship to Executor*

Side Note: The numbers were my own approximation of force strength, mostly not counting fighters, if 1 = Interceptor, which was equal in your eyes to a Nebulon B. Granted, now that I look back they are slightly off, and the numbers would be slightly higher due to misjudging the strength of the dreadnaughts and lower in the case of the Venators. They were only meant to show an approximation anyways. I was suggesting we figure out how to balance the 2 forces but remain true to their tactics. *traditional fighting force vs rag tag pirates* They just felt...off...so I was trying to find out what it was that was making them feel so to me.

Extra Note: Are we going with the Executor with only 144 fighters/bombers or its full thousands? If 144, then the DS will have a significantly greater advantage in fighter superiority *which will lead to a some what evenly balanced battle due to the weaker capital ships.* If it however has the full compliment then that would put the AE not nearly as far behind making the entire space warfare severely lopsided.
"What I unveil today will mark a new era for the Empire. We will be able to decimate the Rebels just as we did the Jedi Knights. At last the Emperor's war will be filled only with the glory and beauty of decisive victory."―Rom Mohc Never force a droid to think without numbers...