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ETA on Raptus & Tyrans Fix?

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
12.28.2013 , 08:36 AM | #1
Dear BW,


First and foremost, happy holidays. Is there a chance your combat designers can have a look at Raptus and Tyrans because they are like two hamsters on coffee. Raptus seems to have developed a mind of his own because he randomly drops aggro on both tanks and then we , as raid, have to split like a banana. He has also developed a new tactic to make our lives miserable. For example, he oftentimes zigs when he should zag, pardon my programmer parlance. Just the other day he decided to rising slash the tank who did not have aggro and then completely ignore my shadow tank even with taunt and go for our scoundrel healer who was returning from the teleport.


Now Tyrans is another basket of pancakes. I mean he really plays hard to get. Simplification seems to be his way of telling us to release our burden. So I main tank, i get simplification, offtank picks him up, i move away to drop my simplification and Tyrans decides to follow me. The other tank taunts him again, Tyrans like a good boy does what he is told, simplification comes, I taunt, and Tyrans follows the other tank WHILE i have aggro. So he moves to the other tank's platform while thundering blasting me from behind (i am sure a joke can be made here ).

We tried many ways of taunting him last night. In the beginning, halfway, towards the end, in between the between of the halfway, we taunted him sideways, perpendicularly, even horizontally, truth of the matter is, he needs to be looked at because damn, that boy aint fine!!!


Regards,

E.

ialyxxiieee's Avatar


ialyxxiieee
12.28.2013 , 01:27 PM | #2
Agreed, I have noticed these problems aswell. Mainly with Tyrans, a lot of groups are calling tanks out for messing up when issues like these are unavoidable
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Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
12.28.2013 , 06:17 PM | #3
I don't really know what you're talking about. My raid group has had both ops on farm status since the second week and the bosses never changed, they've been killable since release. If you are having trouble with the fight, you must be using a wrong strategy. People are way too quick to call fights bugged, a lot of the times it is a boss mechanic they don't understand. It's much easier if you just adjust your own tactic instead of waiting for Bioware to fix or nerf something.

For Raptus, it looks like you are entering the challenge at the wrong time. Tanks and healers should go in immediately, DPS have to wait 20-30 seconds before entering their challenge. That way, the timers of the boss will be aligned differently and you won't have problems with his aggro drop and Rising Slash. Both are boss mechanics, designed to have the group be aware of when they are entering the challenge, and I don't want Bioware to nerf them for groups that don't understand them.

For Tyrans, you are also just having problems with timers. Tyrans only changes his position during certain times, so have both tanks always stand so that even if the boss stays at the old position, you won't have a problem. For example, he won't change position when he is in the middle of a cast, and he won't change position right before Inferno or Thundering Blast. Sometimes, it looks like he is already at the other tank but will then shortly jump back to the first tank, and go back to the other tank. I am not sure if this could be a bug, but if your tanks are standing in the right spot, you'll never have a problem with Thundering Blast hitting the raid.

MitchPB's Avatar


MitchPB
12.28.2013 , 06:32 PM | #4
Anyone else experiencing fake inferno debuff's?
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Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
12.28.2013 , 07:07 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by MitchPB View Post
Anyone else experiencing fake inferno debuff's?
Oh yeah, I've seen this happening a few times while I was on my tank. I would ask the offtank to taunt so that I could walk away and drop my Inferno, but when the debuff expired, it would not show a circle on the ground, and you could safely stand there without taking damage. This happened at least three times on my tank but I am not sure if I have seen it on my healer as well.

It is probably a bug, but this not a bug that could wipe a raid. In general, always be prepared to move away when you get Inferno, and be happy when the Inferno was a fake debuff.

Docmal's Avatar


Docmal
12.28.2013 , 08:03 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Jerba View Post
I don't really know what you're talking about. My raid group has had both ops on farm status since the second week and the bosses never changed, they've been killable since release. If you are having trouble with the fight, you must be using a wrong strategy. People are way too quick to call fights bugged, a lot of the times it is a boss mechanic they don't understand. It's much easier if you just adjust your own tactic instead of waiting for Bioware to fix or nerf something.
Just because a fight is passable doesnt mean it is not bugged. My group has had this all on farm for many weeks but are also aware of all the bugs.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jerba View Post
For Raptus, it looks like you are entering the challenge at the wrong time. Tanks and healers should go in immediately, DPS have to wait 20-30 seconds before entering their challenge. That way, the timers of the boss will be aligned differently and you won't have problems with his aggro drop and Rising Slash. Both are boss mechanics, designed to have the group be aware of when they are entering the challenge, and I don't want Bioware to nerf them for groups that don't understand them.
I honestly dont know what entering the challenge has to do with rising slash. Maybe you are thinking of spinning slash? Rising slash is one of his knock up abilities put on tanks.

Regardless the threat on this fight is really messed up but mostly it is because your tanks get an armor buff and threat debuff from the crystal. The best way to combat this is to taunt fluff constantly. Also we always tank swap after force execution cause it hits hard and is usualy followed by a hard rising slash.


Quote: Originally Posted by Jerba View Post
For Tyrans, you are also just having problems with timers. Tyrans only changes his position during certain times, so have both tanks always stand so that even if the boss stays at the old position, you won't have a problem. For example, he won't change position when he is in the middle of a cast, and he won't change position right before Inferno or Thundering Blast. Sometimes, it looks like he is already at the other tank but will then shortly jump back to the first tank, and go back to the other tank. I am not sure if this could be a bug, but if your tanks are standing in the right spot, you'll never have a problem with Thundering Blast hitting the raid.
Again... This fight is doable but very bugged. It is incredibly frustrating to have tyrans move to a different platform even if the tank who has agro has not moved. Jerba is explaining things that have nothing to do with the problems that really occur on this fight with position. My current theory is that it has something to do with latency. Anyway, i found it best to keep tyrans on one spot and have the tanks swap on that spot then run simplification away.
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Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
12.28.2013 , 08:12 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Docmal View Post
Just because a fight is passable doesnt mean it is not bugged. My group has had this all on farm for many weeks but are also aware of all the bugs.



I honestly dont know what entering the challenge has to do with rising slash. Maybe you are thinking of spinning slash? Rising slash is one of his knock up abilities put on tanks.

Regardless the threat on this fight is really messed up but mostly it is because your tanks get an armor buff and threat debuff from the crystal. The best way to combat this is to taunt fluff constantly. Also we always tank swap after force execution cause it hits hard and is usualy followed by a hard rising slash.




Again... This fight is doable but very bugged. It is incredibly frustrating to have tyrans move to a different platform even if the tank who has agro has not moved. Jerba is explaining things that have nothing to do with the problems that really occur on this fight with position. My current theory is that it has something to do with latency. Anyway, i found it best to keep tyrans on one spot and have the tanks swap on that spot then run simplification away.
I have read different theories on when the Rising Slash happens, and I currently believe that it always happens when all three challenges are completed. If your tanks and healers are going in first, they have a few seconds to position the boss correctly and be ready to heal the tanks as soon as the DPS finish their challenge.
The aggro loss always happens as soon as that large AOE is over.

Yeah, not sure why Tyrans is sometimes jumping to a different platform. I agree that it is best to have both tanks stand on the same platform; that way you don't have too much trouble if the boss is jumping to a DPS.

Feel free to file a bug report about these issues, but please don't call them bugs, just say that you have experienced certain things you cannot explain with the mechanics, and the devs should decide whether or not this is a bug.

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
12.29.2013 , 06:13 AM | #8
I do not see how my post made you jump to the conclusion that these two bosses cannot be beaten. I have DP/DF on farm since it came out and I do it weekly on 6 characters. This whole attitude where we generalize and assume that people are noobs has got to stop. I tank with 1 shadow, 1 guardian, do damage with 1 sentinel, 1 gunslinger, and , of course, heal with 1 scoundrel, 1 sage. All my toons are BIS 78 with 78 mainhands and when I report that Raptus with his buddy Tyrans act weird, trust me, they act weird. This is not a learn to play issue as Jerba makes it sound.

This is not my first BBQ and when we swap on simplification, we are both on the same platfrom, yet I have aggro, without moving from the platform, the previous tank moves to delete a square and Tyrans follows him while hitting me. L2play yes? Honestly , you come on the forums and point out some problems with the game and people lose their mind make you a noob and tell you that things are fine.

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
12.29.2013 , 07:39 AM | #9
Tyrans doesn't stand in his own fire. It sounds like some of these problems are due to people droping Infernos on Tyran's back; he'll teleport to a different, adjacent square and start attacking from that position. I have no idea what would happen if the only adjacent squares had infernos on them.

I've seen Tyrans put the Simplification debuff on his target, then turn to the next highest threat player (possibly with the offtank taunting as well), hit the offtank for 6 seconds, and begin attacking the maintank who placed Simplification as soon as Simplification faded. This does not mean that Tyrans is bugged; it means the maintank has very good threat generation.

As noted earlier in the thread, Raptus's threat problems are confounded by the presence of +threat buffs on DPS and I believe the tanks get -threat+armor debuffs right? That will be a recipe for disaster unless tanks spam taunts.

Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
12.29.2013 , 11:20 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
I do not see how my post made you jump to the conclusion that these two bosses cannot be beaten. I have DP/DF on farm since it came out and I do it weekly on 6 characters. This whole attitude where we generalize and assume that people are noobs has got to stop.
In your first post, you wrote that you required many tries on Tyrans, therefore I was assuming that you were not able to one-shot the bosses. My response was not meant to be an insult, I just wanted to help you how you can improve your tactic so that these issues don't occur again. If it came off as a L2P post to you, I apologize for that.

Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
Tyrans doesn't stand in his own fire. It sounds like some of these problems are due to people droping Infernos on Tyran's back; he'll teleport to a different, adjacent square and start attacking from that position. I have no idea what would happen if the only adjacent squares had infernos on them.
That's a very interesting theory, I never heard of it before. I'll keep an eye on that during our next run.
I believe Leafy_Bug was talking about another issue however, where the offtank had taunted but Tyrans would stay at the first tank for a few additional seconds before teleporting, or teleporting immediately but then going back to the first tank for a few seconds.

In the first few weeks the content came out, we tried a rather weird tactic where the tanks would stand at opposite ends of the room. This had the advantage that the tanks would have more space to drop Inferno, but it decreased the uptime for melee DPS so we have since dropped it.
However, with this tactic, Tyrans would also show these teleportation issues where he stayed at the tank who no longer had aggro. I believe that this may disprove your theory where Tyrans would evade the Inferno by going to an adjacent tile, because with our strategy Tyrans would teleport to the other end of the room.
I think it really depends on some bugs with the teleportation only happening during certain times in Tyrans' ability rotation and is not related to the Inferno. But like I said, I'll keep an eye on it the next time I'm at the boss.

Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
I've seen Tyrans put the Simplification debuff on his target, then turn to the next highest threat player (possibly with the offtank taunting as well), hit the offtank for 6 seconds, and begin attacking the maintank who placed Simplification as soon as Simplification faded. This does not mean that Tyrans is bugged; it means the maintank has very good threat generation.
I can confirm this, I've seen it myself as well that the main tank gets back Tyrans without taunting, but it happens very rarely.
Some more details regarding which player is targeted after Simplification. Once the main tank has the Simplification debuff, Tyrans ignores this player completely.

Case A:
When the offtank is in second place on threat and does not taunt, Tyrans will automatically target the offtank while the first tank has simplification. If the Simplification debuff has expired and the main tank is still in first place, Tyrans will go back to the main tank.
Therefore, the tanks do not need to use taunt, but it is recommended to do it because there is no guarantee that the offtank will be in second place on threat. Especially at the beginning of the fight, a DPS may be in second place.

Threat list:
1. Main tank with simplification (is ignored)
2. Off tank
3. DPS
...
-> Tyrans attacks the offtank

Case B:
The alternative is that the offtank taunts while Tyrans is casting Simplification on the main tank. This ensures that the offtank has more threat than any DPS or healer. It is wrong to say that Tyrans automatically targets the player second-highest in threat. He will look at the threat list and try to target the player with highest threat first. If this player has the Simplification debuff, Tyrans ignores this player and tries to target the second highest player, etc.
In this Case B, for example, Tyrans is in fact attacking the player with highest threat, because the offtank taunted during the cast and now has the highest threat.
Should the main tank be able to generate so much more threat than the offtank that he is on top of the Threat list after Simplification, then Tyrans will once again attack the main tank. This however should not happen unless the offtank stops attacking or uses a threat dump or something.

Threat list:
1. Offtank
2. Main tank with simplification (is ignored)
3. DPS
...
-> Tyrans attacks the offtank

Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
As noted earlier in the thread, Raptus's threat problems are confounded by the presence of +threat buffs on DPS and I believe the tanks get -threat+armor debuffs right? That will be a recipe for disaster unless tanks spam taunts.
I believe Leafy_Bug was not talking about this. Of course, the tanks have a little less threat than DPS, but this should only be a problem at the beginning of the fight.

Leafy_Bug was talking about the time when all three roles have completed their challenge. We have talked about a little bit in this thread, see SnickerJew's post and the responses to it.
Apparently, 2-3 seconds after all three challenges are completed, every player will have his aggro reset and Raptus will shortly target the player who was supposed to kiting them. At least this is what I believe is happening.
In any case, you can prevent this from being too big of an issue by having your tanks and healers enter first, and DPS enter when the red text "30 seconds remaining" appears. That way, the tanks will be in position to immediately taunt back when the DPS come out of their challenge.