Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

How To: Progression Raiding?


Projawa's Avatar


Projawa
12.26.2013 , 10:37 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
On a more personal note, I will emphasize Boarder's point on tanks pushing themselves to hold agro off of DPS. Agro loss is not the fault of the DPS. Not ever. DPS should be blowing everything and unbinding their agro dump to pull off the tank. As a tank, I would expect no less from my DPS. If they pull off me, I own up to it and I learn. Understand what you did wrong (and if you lost agro, it was wrong!) and do better on the next pull.
As a dps'er of course I agree with this though I am wondering- one excuse I've heard from tanks that consistently lose aggro to high burst classes is "we've prioritized our gear optimization for survival, not for generating optimal threat". To all you tanks out there- is this reasoning valid?

Solar_Breeze's Avatar


Solar_Breeze
12.26.2013 , 11:34 PM | #22
My opinion differs slightly on agro.

IMO saying a dps should unbind (never use) their agro dump is a little like saying tanks and dps shouldn't use a medpack or self-cleanse because the healers should be good enough to cleanse & heal through all the damage.
(re-reading this it comes off a little strong. It's not my intention for it to be that way but I feel like it should stay in)

Whilst it is every players responsibility to always improve and for tanks the way they play and hold agro is a major factor. It is also the responsibility of every raider to assist each other.

Raids are about players working together. You train as a team to work together. When you work together well enough you progress through raids. Never try and make someone in your team fail.

- As a dps I expect players to be capable of using an agro drop during a phase change, target swap or after a precast as well as during a fight without it impacting overall dps.
- As a tank I expect players to be capable of recognising where a dps (and which one) is likely to pull agro (for example the above scenarios) and take steps to avoid that.

Having said this a mistake like loss of agro, player death etc.. will always occur how you deal with that mistake and improve/ carry on from it is far more important.
Emrys - Red Eclipse
Spoiler

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.26.2013 , 11:47 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Projawa View Post
As a dps'er of course I agree with this though I am wondering- one excuse I've heard from tanks that consistently lose aggro to high burst classes is "we've prioritized our gear optimization for survival, not for generating optimal threat". To all you tanks out there- is this reasoning valid?
Nope, it's not valid. If you're consistently losing agro to any class, you're doing something wrong in your opener. All three tanks have an opener which will hold guaranteed threat (barring resists) against any DPS class in the game. Resists will happen on occasion, and they can result in threat loss, but this is why tank openers always include taunt fluff timed to marginalize the impact of such resists. I can lose threat in my opener, particularly if my Force Pull is resisted (yes, that can happen), but my first taunt is timed such that I'll get it back before it matters, and often before anyone notices.

To clarify, my tank is in fully mitigation-itemized gear without a drop of accuracy, high main stat armorings or power crystals. My group's DPS are in optimized Dread Forged and all four are pulling between 3.7k and 3.85k on the 1 million HP dummy.

Quote: Originally Posted by Solar_Breeze View Post
My opinion differs slightly on agro.

IMO saying a dps should unbind (never use) their agro dump is a little like saying tanks and dps shouldn't use a medpack or self-cleanse because the healers should be good enough to cleanse & heal through all the damage.
(re-reading this it comes off a little strong. It's not my intention for it to be that way but I feel like it should stay in)
I think this is a fair perspective. In general, I tend to bias my thinking about raids in favor of taking load off of the DPS and healers and putting it on the tanks, simply because I main a tank myself. I do think that DPS shouldn't need to agro dump, and removing the agro dump as a point of concern for them frees up their concentration to focus on execution and high damage. Ideally, I want my DPS to be able to treat every boss fight as close to a dummy as possible, and obviously a dummy doesn't require agro dumps.

With that said, you're right that everyone in the raid should be supporting everyone else. If a tank does need an agro dump for whatever reason, they should be able to call for it and get it. For example, I call for my DPS to agro dump at specific times during Raptus due to the threat debuff from the tank curse. They know where the issues are, and they're happy to oblige when I ask. In turn, I try to provide them with the confidence to blow out their hardest-hitting attacks without fear of turning the boss at an inopportune moment and wiping the raid.

Quote: Originally Posted by Solar_Breeze View Post
Having said this a mistake like loss of agro, player death etc.. will always occur how you deal with that mistake and improve/ carry on from it is far more important.
Yep. This is particularly true in the case of agro due to the fact that min-maxed tanks have less than 100% accuracy, meaning that they can and will run into situations where they hit an unlucky streak of resists, resulting in agro loss. Good tanks have their taunt timing such that this will never be a mechanical issue, which speaks to the "deal with that mistake and improve/carry on" point.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Solar_Breeze's Avatar


Solar_Breeze
12.26.2013 , 11:52 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
If a tank does need an agro dump for whatever reason, they should be able to call for it and get it. For example, I call for my DPS to agro dump at specific times during Raptus due to the threat debuff from the tank curse. They know where the issues are, and they're happy to oblige when I ask. In turn, I try to provide them with the confidence to blow out their hardest-hitting attacks without fear of turning the boss at an inopportune moment and wiping the raid.
And this is exactly what is required in a progression raiding group. Mutual trust in the group that everyone plays to the best of their ability and reacts to the changing situation. Well put.

Every player in the group is responsible for tanking, dps and healing something might be your main focus but you are still responsible for the others. If tanks and dps take less damage the healers can do more damage. If the tanks hold agro well the dps are more confident to do more damage and in turn avoid more damage because they feel like they don't have to 'push'.
That's why un nerfed DG was the best fight in the game. Everyone was playing all the roles to the best of their ability to down it.
Emrys - Red Eclipse
Spoiler

FridgeLM's Avatar


FridgeLM
12.28.2013 , 07:15 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
So what exactly is our problem there? I have been watching raid clear videos, trying to understand how these top end progression raid groups clear this content. And one bit of evidence I noted, was that the members rarely used voice chat. Most of the run is silent, with only the essential mechanics being called out.!
lol, you're clearly not watching the right stream. Twitch is below, can't get us to shut up.
<Death and Taxes>

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
12.28.2013 , 08:41 AM | #26
Tanks can lose aggro and sometimes it is out of their reach. That is why the DPS should always have aggro dump in their rotation to prevent such things.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.28.2013 , 03:19 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
Tanks can lose aggro and sometimes it is out of their reach. That is why the DPS should always have aggro dump in their rotation to prevent such things.
The only time I lose agro and it's out of my reach is when I did something wrong. Full stop. This happens, because I'm not perfect, but it only happens when I make a mistake.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)