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[Theorycrafting] DPS Scalars Moving from Dummy to Boss

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
[Theorycrafting] DPS Scalars Moving from Dummy to Boss

odawgg's Avatar


odawgg
10.26.2013 , 09:06 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by ceazare View Post
I did some testing too and I can also confirm that 20% armor debuff is on Armor Rating. All further armor penetration talents I tested have been multiplicative.

Add 15 % armor penetration
Armor Rating: 7538*(1-0.2)*(1-0.15) = 5126
Damage Reduction: 26.8 %
I thought so, thank you for testing, have you had a chance to test any abilities that receive multiple armor pens through talents? I am thinking they are multiplicative too but I'm not certain. When I get time I will test rail shot in pyro as it has 2 talents.

I updated my Spreadsheet assuming multiplicative armor pen talents, 4.89% damage increase from armor debuff for mercenary pyro with this parse anyway.

Having a harder time deciding how to treat the sub 30 burn, I know there's been discussion on it and maybe yall decided on a common ground to base it off of. Group composition as well as the encounter mechanics play a big role.

ceazare's Avatar


ceazare
10.27.2013 , 10:32 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by odawgg View Post
I thought so, thank you for testing, have you had a chance to test any abilities that receive multiple armor pens through talents? I am thinking they are multiplicative too but I'm not certain. When I get time I will test rail shot in pyro as it has 2 talents.

I updated my Spreadsheet assuming multiplicative armor pen talents, 4.89% damage increase from armor debuff for mercenary pyro with this parse anyway.

Having a harder time deciding how to treat the sub 30 burn, I know there's been discussion on it and maybe yall decided on a common ground to base it off of. Group composition as well as the encounter mechanics play a big role.
Sorry, my claim above was actually wrong. I tested each talent against an armor debuff without other similar talents interfering.

I spent some time today on dummy and tested everything that has to do with armor debuffs / armor ignores and armor penetrations on mercs and snipers.

It turns out that ignores add, so if you take
Advanced Targetting (Rail Shot and Unload ignore 30 % of target's armor)
Superheated Rail (Rail shot ignores 30 % of target's armor),

the two talents will stack additively and rail shot will ignore 60 % of target's armor. Armor Debuff will stack multiplicatively. I also tested High Velocity Cylinder on top of all that and to my surprise its 35 % armor penetration stacks additively to armor ignores (for a whopping 95% armor penetration on Rail Shots).

All of the above percentages refer to Armor Rating.
Spoiler


I tested similar talents and skills on sniper and got same results. Armor penetrations and ignores talents stack additively, but multiplicatively wih an armor debuff.
Pelara <Titans>
The Red Eclipse

odawgg's Avatar


odawgg
10.28.2013 , 10:24 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by ceazare View Post
Sorry, my claim above was actually wrong. I tested each talent against an armor debuff without other similar talents interfering.

I spent some time today on dummy and tested everything that has to do with armor debuffs / armor ignores and armor penetrations on mercs and snipers.

It turns out that ignores add, so if you take
Advanced Targetting (Rail Shot and Unload ignore 30 % of target's armor)
Superheated Rail (Rail shot ignores 30 % of target's armor),

the two talents will stack additively and rail shot will ignore 60 % of target's armor. Armor Debuff will stack multiplicatively. I also tested High Velocity Cylinder on top of all that and to my surprise its 35 % armor penetration stacks additively to armor ignores (for a whopping 95% armor penetration on Rail Shots).

All of the above percentages refer to Armor Rating.
Spoiler


I tested similar talents and skills on sniper and got same results. Armor penetrations and ignores talents stack additively, but multiplicatively wih an armor debuff.
You're awesome for testing all that...gonna save me many hours this week Thank you

Falver's Avatar


Falver
10.29.2013 , 02:03 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by cxten View Post
With 2.5, it's possible that inspiration should be added to this, as it's now like the 20% armor debuff (everyone should get it, assuming you have a sentinel in your group). At the least this is a 0.75% (= 15% * 15/300) buff for non-sentinels across the board.

Previously, since each added sentinel brought a new inspiration, it would have actually been proper to add the damage increase of the 3 other people in the sentinel's group to the sentinel's adjusted dps. That means the sentinel would have roughly a 2.25% damage increase (or rather, 2.25% of the average dps across classes, say).
I would rather not see inspiration in the calculations personally. Seems kinda niche-y to add to anyone other than a sentinel. Anyways, I'm a little too tired to really look through the math but, what's the consensus on the new math? The scalars still reasonable and acceptable?
The Harbinger
Claimed - Thirteenth - Falver
<Phobos> is recruiting to fill in multiple raid groups. Apply at http://fearphobos.com/

Shandellon's Avatar


Shandellon
10.29.2013 , 09:08 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Falver View Post
what's the consensus on the new math? The scalars still reasonable and acceptable?
Reasonable yes, but not accurate. Almost every number differs from what is stated in first post. They are however in 1%-2% range (in percentage points)
Cyntia - Sage Hp - Gunsliger Dps
<Not Good Enough>/<FriendlyFire> @ ToFN

odawgg's Avatar


odawgg
10.29.2013 , 06:32 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Shandellon View Post
Reasonable yes, but not accurate. Almost every number differs from what is stated in first post. They are however in 1%-2% range (in percentage points)
As in the original post is not accurate or the new math is not accurate?

ceazare's Avatar


ceazare
10.29.2013 , 09:41 PM | #127
I think scalars are reasonable. They just need to be adjusted.

Spoiler
Pelara <Titans>
The Red Eclipse

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
10.30.2013 , 10:12 AM | #128
Yep, if you're just going from 0% armor reduction/penetration/ignorance to 20% armor rating reduction, then the scalar is (1-0.3)/(1-0.35) = 1.0769. This applies to Balance Shadows, Balance Sages, Telekinetic Sages, Watchman Sentinels, and Dirty Fighting Scoundrels.

Still looking at the Full Auto data

ceazare's Avatar


ceazare
10.30.2013 , 11:13 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
Still looking at the Full Auto data
Full auto benefits from 20 % armor debuff and 35 % armor penetration from cell and 30 % ignore from the Target Lock talent.

You calculate the equivalent armor rating
7538 * (1 - 0.2) * (1 - (0.35 + 0.3)) = 2111
Insert that into formula for DR
2111 / ( 2111 + 240 * 55 + 800 ) * 100 = 13.1 %
Code:
                          |  min  |  avg  |  max 
full auto tooltips | 2780 | 3030 | 3280
after 13.1% DR  | 2416 | 2633 | 2850
your parse data | 2421 | 2657 | 2844
Your parsed full auto values are within the tooltip range from what I can see.
Pelara <Titans>
The Red Eclipse

odawgg's Avatar


odawgg
10.30.2013 , 11:35 PM | #130
Alright I did a new parse today since the Pyro Fix: Pyro Parse

And I'm feeling pretty confident with my new calculations for scalars, although this is subject to change if you all can find any errors : Pyro Scalar Spreadsheet

I didn't get fancy with the sub 30 burn, I just adjusted the time assuming I was solo'ing the boss with an armor debuff applied and recalculated DPS based on that adjusted time.

Boss HP = Adjusted damage done w/armor debuff applied
Total Adjusted Time = Length of parse - A + B
Adjusted DPS = Boss HP / Total Adjusted Time

*A = Length of Parse Sub 30 (in seconds) = .3 * Length of parse
*B = Sub 30 Adjusted Time = .3 * Boss HP / Sub 30 DPS

Summary: Based on this parse and the new verified (more or less) method for calculating armor debuff, the gain Pyro gets from Armor Debuff is ~4.65% and a total gain of ~6.64% when factoring in Sub 30% burn. This brings the 3550 dps parse to 3786. I think the sub 30 burn may be slightly undervalued in this model based on most group compositions, but I'd rather not complicate things...someone else is welcome to try and modify it based on whatever this thread came to an agreement on for sub 30 scalars.

I find this very believable as I ran DF HM last night. On Nefra, the new tunnel boss, I missed very few GCDs (had to cleanse myself here and there) as I was never targeted by the bomb guy and never very close to the one who was. I hit 3720, no telling for sure what that would have been on a dummy, but I felt good about my rotation in this encounter.