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Worst P2W I've seen.


bsatvat's Avatar


bsatvat
09.01.2013 , 03:38 AM | #21
It is not pay to win, or at least, no more so than any other game with digital currency now.

In Guild Wars 2, SO many people paid to get gold so they could get the mats for their legendary weapons or mystic armor. Of course, parts of the recipe were things you had to grind by playing. So basically you could get second highest tear of gear.

In Warcraft, tons of people used to buy gold or, even, buy rankings, so that they could unlock gear. I understand your point that the Cartel is sanctioned and operated by EA, but the basic point is the same.

In Warcraft, if you shelled out enough for gold, you could get to all but the highest tiers of gear, especially in recent patches where there are MANY bind on equip items in the strongest dungeons that you could buy for gold.

The trend in PVE in MMORPGs is flattened gear because people are tiring of the raiding and incremental gear grinds. In old Warcraft, you literally had to agonizingly go through each tier. Now, really, there is tier 1 and like tier 1.5. This is no different from SWTOR.

There is base gear you can get pretty easily, and the absolute best gear which you have to earn.

In PvP, I think it's much better than Warcraft or other options, in the sense that you literally can only get rewards by playing PvP.

I think SWTOR has some stuff to fix, but I think people are looking for problems in the Cartel that aren't there.

Should there be some vanity or gear things people pay money for in the cartel store? Yes, if you like SWTOR and don't mind people paying and getting that stuff so the F2P players can stay F2P. I you don't like the cartel, you should have subscribed. If enough people had done that, they wouldn't have needed to do it.

This is P2I - Pay to Improve. But that's what you get when you can't run solely off subscriptions.

I don't know - I bought the game on deluxe pre-order, played two months and left. I'm back now and I'm really impressed at the changes and I like it. I know it is frustrating and slow to see the problems, but EA had a management shake-up, fired 15% of the Company and is SLOWLY trying to improve. Christ, you should see the mess they had with Simcity. I stupidly bought that too and that game is dead on arrival. At least, hopefully they can fix this one before it's too late.

I think keeping up lots of content will help.

Also, gear is one thing but performance is another. Even in these MMORPGs, you can have the best PvP or PVE gear, but the action is all in getting the heroic clears the quickest, or sustaining high PvP performance in tourneys.

Everybody I know in PvE in the good MMORPGs has basically the best gear, but there are still huge gaps in top 500 guilds in WoW and how fast they clear the hardest bosses. There are huge gaps between people capped in PvP gear and who stays on top.

If you think even getting the best gear means you have "won", you haven't. People will know who cleared the content the fastest and, the moment the new content comes, if you weren't naturally good or putting in your time, you have to pay again.

Honestly, if some person is going to pay $50-100 a pop to get some gear each time any new content drops, that's crazy pricy. If they choose to have their fun paying that kind of money, that's life. It's just a game and it's not like their actions inhibit my fun. I can accomplish the same thing, have the pleasure of knowing I did it myself, and pocket the cash.

Plus, the way I think about it is I subscribe, but if enough people weren't paying for those cartel coins, they would have to shut the game down or come up with some even crazier scheme.

Just wait - see what happens when WoW gets below 1M subscribers one day. The cash scheme there will make Bernie Madoff look like Aunt Jemima. They will make you pay to take a dump in capital cities or to dance with other NPCs.

Hessen's Avatar


Hessen
09.01.2013 , 03:51 AM | #22
Buying gear off GTN is not P2W, regardless of how you have obtained the credits.
Twisted
EU - Tomb of Freedon Nadd
16m Raiding Guild - Recruiting

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
09.01.2013 , 04:24 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Stoofa View Post
No it doesn't - you've just contradicted yourself in your own post.
In the above statement you could simply "grind flashpoints". You are NOT forced to spend money to remain competitive.
Spend a week doing nothing but dailies. Take 1 character and do BH, Section X, Makeb and Czerka each day.
You'll have a load of basic coms - for gear certainly better than the Blue 53's and you'll be more than ready for HM flashpoints. Once you start these you'll start earning Elite coms.
At no point in that process do you HAVE to spend credits.

So as has already been said - there is no P2W.
What Buggs already said. P2W doesn't mean you -have- to spend real money on a game, it means you -can- do it. If I toss money on a bunch of cartel packs and sell it on the GTN I'll soon be able to buy crafted gear that is better than what you can get for basic comms.

So long as you -can- use real money to advance your character in game (directly or indirectly), the game suffers from P2W.
Lambaste!
Best talent in the Galaxy!

TheNahash's Avatar


TheNahash
09.01.2013 , 04:27 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Buggs View Post
This one I will respond to as it's well-considered.

However 1 tier below the best still has a big drag on all the tiers below and the cartel items that can be bought for cash and sold for in-game currency (be that credits or gold-quality tradables like mass manips or others that hold their value well) therefore have a significant effect on the difficulty of the game.

Simply adding more difficulty settings doesn't help either as those without the "pay" resources others have don't have the chance to buy the gear needed for the higher levels meaning less cash denies some of the population content easily accessible to those with cash.

So it might not be the simplistic P2W mentioned above but it's certainly an extended version of it.
"Win", though a highly debatable term when talking about an MMO, is about beating the hardest content there is by paying or having access to overpowered items that can be acquired only through the game's shop.

If someone is buying stuff off the CM for real-life money and selling them on the GTN in order to get second-best gear, they're not Paying to Win, they're Paying to be a Fool. So, if they want to do just that, I say let them. They are paying for my enjoyment

Also, even if you were right about the P2W element, your title would still be misleading and plain out false. Because if this is the "worst P2W you've seen" you've either not seen real P2W or P2W is not the huge, game-changing issue that people make it out to be.

Lastly, I'd like to add this: no matter what they add to a game's shop, the moment the shop itself is added there will be people crying "P2W! P2W!"

In this case, they give you the option to buy the stuff you like from the GTN, which if you ask me is good for us but it might not be the wisest decision for Bioware both in terms of income and the time needed for people to reach BiS gear. But that's their choice to make, not mine.

You can abuse the system and bypass most of the endgame content to get second best gear, by selling CM stuff and making a lot of credits, but that's just stupid because in addition to just having spent probably thousands of dollars/euros for a game, if you go straight to the hardest content there is and beat it...well... there's not much else to be paying for, is there?

You're essentially buying your way out of the fun you could've been having by playing the game. How is that rational or even Bioware's fault?
Master Kalchas Captain Santé
Darth Dírge Agent Héretic

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
09.01.2013 , 04:31 AM | #25
It's not p2w. To me this entire f2p is just an extended trial. You are blocked from doing so many things, everything is much more difficult so you can't enjoy the game. At least not once you've played a sub.
Sig removed so Bioware adds "them" faster. kthxbai.

Sammennn's Avatar


Sammennn
09.01.2013 , 04:32 AM | #26
Bought a hypercrate with real life currency.

Sold it for milions of credits.

Bought PVE end-game mods from GTM.

How is this NOT pay to win?

#howmadarewerightnow
i am a nobody and i shall remain a nobody

TheNahash's Avatar


TheNahash
09.01.2013 , 04:34 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Sammennn View Post
Bought a hypercrate with real life currency.

Sold it for milions of credits.

Bought PVE end-game mods from GTM.

How is this NOT pay to win?

#howmadarewerightnow
Spent real-life money on top of your subscription

Sold the item for millions of credits

Bought second-best end-game mods that you could've got by simply raiding with your guild

How is that Pay to win?

#deadlogic
Master Kalchas Captain Santé
Darth Dírge Agent Héretic

Hessen's Avatar


Hessen
09.01.2013 , 04:37 AM | #28
Bought a subscription

Did content allowed by subscription

Earned gear

OMG PAY2WIN
Twisted
EU - Tomb of Freedon Nadd
16m Raiding Guild - Recruiting

Sammennn's Avatar


Sammennn
09.01.2013 , 04:40 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by TheNahash View Post
Spent real-life money on top of your subscription

Sold the item for millions of credits

Bought second-best end-game mods that you could've got by simply raiding with your guild

How is that Pay to win?

#deadlogic
Oh, it's second-best end game mods? Oh I could've gotten it in a RAID instead?

Thanks for proving it's definitely a pay to win feature ^_^.

#howdeadarewerightnow
i am a nobody and i shall remain a nobody

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
09.01.2013 , 04:43 AM | #30
This game does not suffer from P2W. One can create dozens of convoluted explanations as to why the description would fit and it still doesn't make it so.

The problem with claiming this game is P2W is that players are far more intelligent than they were 20 years ago, and can therefore make up their own minds instead of allowing someone to make it up for them.

Why not simply come clean and state that you do not like the market. That much is obvious. It is also obvious that it is the likely way of the future.

And that is that.