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A Plea for cross server flashpoint queues.


Powerrmongerr's Avatar


Powerrmongerr
08.14.2013 , 01:31 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post

rewards for tanks? I don't know what could POSSIBLY entice me personally to deal with the kind of pugs you can sometimes get regularly. I don't think even free subscription could do that.
Oh, I don't know. I'd think you'd do it for a rancor mount, an all black glossy version of the Desler, or the chance to earn rank 75 gear mods. I could be wrong.

I would love to see stats on the tank population right now versus pre 2.0. It must have dropped precipitously, right? Pre 2.0, even bad tanks could get by in HM flashpoints and the HM/NiM variations of two of the four raids. Post 2.0? All of the new HM FPs and the the new raid (even at SM) have noticeable tanking mechanic checks.

The two raids that required essentially no tanking mechanics (except, I guess, Fabricator) stayed at level 50, and so did EC HM/NiM. You want to do level 55 content as a tank, you gotta have some idea of how to handle mechanics. And don't tell me SV SM and TFB SM are so easy even bad tanks can do them. As someone who attempted probably 15-20 SM SV and TFB raids through groupfinder for the ultimate comms, a significant percentage of people queuing as tanks could not handle the most simple of tanking mechanics.

sithBracer's Avatar


sithBracer
08.14.2013 , 01:38 PM | #12
What about for a chance at new rare color dyes (black and something or black and black)? How about for cartel coins? Or yeah, some rare 72 enhancements that only a tank can use? Or some rare phantom gear or the throne speeder?

Even if you don't I'm sure many tanks will and a lot more people will start rolling a tank instead of dps.

Healers will probably complain that they don't get anything but speaking as a healer: who the hell cares? You guys are still expendable.

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
08.14.2013 , 02:20 PM | #13
I resent the implication that healers are expendable. the reason why I prefer to play healers rather than tanks (even while playing both) is because I get much more of a say in groups success as a healer, then as a tank. I metaphorically hold lives in my hands. from personal experience - good healer can pull a crappy tank through, but good tank just cannot compensate the same way for a crappy healer.

that said - rewards for tanks may entice some people to tank more. they will also most certainly entice people who are not really tanks to queue as one and hope to be carried through. so I'm not sure rewards would fix the situation either... even if you make it into a reward for whatever role is most lacking at the time, not just tank.

last but not least, I've seen healers be as much of a bottleneck as tanks. depends on time of the week/day. (hell like in my little anecdote, where my buddy tank had to switch to dps for us to get a group)

sithBracer's Avatar


sithBracer
08.14.2013 , 02:44 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I resent the implication that healers are expendable. the reason why I prefer to play healers rather than tanks (even while playing both) is because I get much more of a say in groups success as a healer, then as a tank. I metaphorically hold lives in my hands. from personal experience - good healer can pull a crappy tank through, but good tank just cannot compensate the same way for a crappy healer.
Sorry but the truth hurts. If a healer leaves a queue or rage quits a group there is a whole line of healers waiting to take his/her place. It's not as big as the dps line of course and sometimes the group might have to wait 2-5 minutes but it will never be too long.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
last but not least, I've seen healers be as much of a bottleneck as tanks. depends on time of the week/day. (hell like in my little anecdote, where my buddy tank had to switch to dps for us to get a group)
Yes, yes we all go through the monday night healer strike every once in a while-I found out the hard way when I found 2 tanks in 2 minutes and spent the next 45 minutes looking for a healer (and pretty much the entire group gave up on waiting and the group disbanded), but when it comes to GF, that is definitely not the norm. Do I get instapops on my 2 main healers? Of course I do, but they happen so rarely that I actually get annoyed when it happens. Since it's so rare, I usually queue then spend the next few minutes getting the daily/weekly, checking GTN, selling some stuff and traveling to a different planet to get ready for a daily.

Speaking of anecdotes, I remember when a tank friend queued on his dps with my healer once, after waiting for around 15 minutes he unqueued us and told me to switch to healer in GF. I told him I am in healer and this is a normal wait time for us and that now he just extended our wait time. He was like: ***?

Powerrmongerr's Avatar


Powerrmongerr
08.14.2013 , 02:50 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I resent the implication that healers are expendable. the reason why I prefer to play healers rather than tanks (even while playing both) is because I get much more of a say in groups success as a healer, then as a tank. I metaphorically hold lives in my hands. from personal experience - good healer can pull a crappy tank through, but good tank just cannot compensate the same way for a crappy healer.

that said - rewards for tanks may entice some people to tank more. they will also most certainly entice people who are not really tanks to queue as one and hope to be carried through. so I'm not sure rewards would fix the situation either... even if you make it into a reward for whatever role is most lacking at the time, not just tank.

last but not least, I've seen healers be as much of a bottleneck as tanks. depends on time of the week/day. (hell like in my little anecdote, where my buddy tank had to switch to dps for us to get a group)
I'm not sure how this is turning into a manhood measuring contest between healers and tanks, but I'd say my healing companion (admittedly, in full 72s) is significantly better at his job than a good chunk of pug healers (except meltdown and lost island, with their companion eating aoe, the flashpoints can be easily cleared with a companion healer).

Healers are never as scarce as tanks for the simple reason that respeccing from dps to heals is easy. With the exception of accuracy, there's really no stat changes to worry about. Respeccing from tank to dps? Many problems. Namely: none of the tanking classes have a popular dps spec at the moment, an entirely different set of gear is required, and the skillset gap between tanking and dps'ing is neither intuitive nor easily learned.

Moricthian's Avatar


Moricthian
08.14.2013 , 03:55 PM | #16
You know what would solve this problem? Duel Spec and a quick gear swap option. We need a feature that allows players to switch between two specs at a push of a button (rather than have to respec each and ever time) and we also need to quick button that allows a player to switch between two sets of gear. This will make PvP easier as a player can switch between PvP and PvE gear easier but it would really go a long way to solving long FP queues. Why you ask? Because leveling as a tank is a pain and its boring (yes I know you love it but for everyone else its slow and boring. This way they can still level as DPS, do dailies as DPS and switch to Tank stuff on the fly when queuing for a FP. This would incentivize more people to tank FP because they don't have to sacrifice daily and leveling efficiency to do it.

Now let me address some of the counter arguments:

1. We already have a respec option. We do but its not enough. Having to reset up your spec trees and keybinds every time you enter a flashpoint is a pain in the rear. You can even argue it only takes two minutes. But that's two minutes people don't want to spend fighting with their UI. If we want more tanks, we should make the transition between tanking and DPS as streamlined as possible. This would also include some kind of option to switch between two sets of gear on the fly.

2. Implementing these features is too difficult. I find that hard to believe. WoW has features just like it and their devs figured it out just fine. BW shouldn't find it too much more difficult.

3. I personally don't like these features/think they are unneeded. Good for you. Enjoy not using them.

4. Such a streamlined interface makes this game too easy/noob friendly. Some people find some sick twisted pleasure in combing through their menu screens, adjusting spec trees, key-binds and gear. That's not most people. This game should be hard and difficult but the difficulty should be found within the content itself. This argument confuses nerfing with accessibility. The above features would make content more accessible (easier to access and enjoy) while not necessarily making the content itself face roll (nerfing). You can do the former without the later.

5. The overall quality of tanks and healers will decrease. I think this objection is a fair one. With DPS being able to access tank gear/specs easier, they will probably not be as good. However this is where you have to weigh the good with the bad. If I'm a good DPS who puts out decent dmg and has good awareness (thinks to offtank mobs off healer, cc's appropriately etc...) then I should be able to make up for a lackluster tank. Even if overall tank quality does go down, cutting the queue times significantly will be worth it.

So here you have it BW. Duel spec/duel gear equip is a MUCH NEEDED FEATURE simply because it will ultimately make queue time shorter. People will spend more time playing the game and less time sitting around. That will keep people playing which is what we all want.

Powerrmongerr's Avatar


Powerrmongerr
08.14.2013 , 04:00 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Moricthian View Post
You know what would solve this problem? Duel Spec and a quick gear swap option ... .
The game does need this. Badly. However, I think it will result in MORE healers to a far greater extent than tanks for the simple reason that it will not solve the problem of needing a separate dps and tanking gear set. This is a larger barrier to entry than skill. Nobody in their right mind is going to build up a dps and tanking set between levels 50-54, that would be utterly tedious.

So what's the quick fix for this problem? Hand out a "recruit" type tanking set that's equivalent to campaign, with no set bonus, to anyone who reaches level 55? Ugh. Not so sure that's a good idea.

sithBracer's Avatar


sithBracer
08.14.2013 , 04:11 PM | #18
Yes you are right, I am 100% sure the reason people aren't playing with tanks and only as dps is because of those 2 minutes they need to respec their skill tree. It has nothing to do with tanking being harder, more reliant on team members, a need for a separate set of gear, constantly being blamed for losses even when the dps had no idea what they were doing, a need a remember every single mechanic in the game and boring to level up in the beginning. Nope, it's that 2 minutes that they need to respec in the skill tree. Well I think a solution is to let us save specs for quicker access. So if I make a spec I can save it and then when I want to go back to it I just click on that saved spec and I have the exact spec I want, not just the full tank tree.

Do you honestly want to know what I think will get more people to tank? Give them a second lightsaber. A lot of people only choose the sentinel/marauder because they have 2 lightsabers, no other reason, and by the time they get to level 55 they realize they can only dps. Give the juggs a second lightsaber and boom you will see a spike in tanks ... they will all probably be ****** tanks but at least the queues will be faster.

Edit-And give the sorcs a second lightsaber and you will see very few assassins and nothing but sorc healers in queues.

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
08.14.2013 , 05:45 PM | #19
The OP really hasnt thought this through. X-server is only increasing the volume of the player pool when the real problem is the concentration of certain specs. There's no significant difference between the tank:dps and healer:dps ratios on PvE and PvP servers, or atleast not in the PvE servers favor, so it wouldnt solve anything.

Greggo's Avatar


Greggo
08.14.2013 , 11:57 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by MidichIorian View Post
The OP really hasnt thought this through. X-server is only increasing the volume of the player pool when the real problem is the concentration of certain specs. There's no significant difference between the tank:dps and healer:dps ratios on PvE and PvP servers, or atleast not in the PvE servers favor, so it wouldnt solve anything.
I agree, the problem during prime time (US) probably has more to do with class balance, or more specifically, the amount of tanks willing to queue solo using LFG tool. But in off peak times (AUS Prime time) I truly believe that the more people I have an opportunity of grouping with the better. Particularly with all of the aussie players now spread amongst the US servers, instead of being in one place.
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