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On this "Sith are not evil" thing

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
On this "Sith are not evil" thing

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
08.20.2013 , 02:54 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Vecke View Post
That's a good point and I concede that it was a poor choice of words on my part.

But it's still got a pretty high ick-factor, no matter how noble the cause. Based purely on genetics, a child is being assigned to a life of servitude and isn't given a choice in the matter until after he or she has been completely indoctrinated by the order that took him.

I can't think of a real-world analogy to this practice that isn't pretty high on the "that's messed up" scale.

Don't get me wrong, here. I'm on the "Jedi are not evil" side. I'm just saying some of their policies and activities definitely skirt the line between right and wrong.
Actually what the Jedi do is no worse than what the Shaolin Monastery still does in China. In fact many parents in China actually PAY the Shaolin Monastery to take their kids, because in many ways an education from the Shaolin is very similar in China to an education from an Ivy League University in the rest of the world. Not to mention the added side perk that children who are trained in the Shaolin style martial arts have the opportunity to become world famous celebrities on the Martial Arts Demonstration Circuit.

In fact the Jedi Order is largely modeled after many Chinese and Japanese Martial Arts Monasteries. And for the record, not one person in the world would argue that the Shaolin Monastery is EVIL or qualifies as "Ick-Factor." At least not anymore.

Also can be likened to many European Monasteries who took in orphans and impoverished children in the middle ages so that they would be raised in a setting that actually cared for them, instead of having to live on the streets or in slums.

For reference, Shaolin is one of the oldest styles of Self-Defense Martial Arts in the world. The Monastery having been founded in 477 A.D.
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

Vecke's Avatar


Vecke
08.20.2013 , 03:49 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
Actually what the Jedi do is no worse than what the Shaolin Monastery still does in China. In fact many parents in China actually PAY the Shaolin Monastery to take their kids, because in many ways an education from the Shaolin is very similar in China to an education from an Ivy League University in the rest of the world. Not to mention the added side perk that children who are trained in the Shaolin style martial arts have the opportunity to become world famous celebrities on the Martial Arts Demonstration Circuit.

In fact the Jedi Order is largely modeled after many Chinese and Japanese Martial Arts Monasteries. And for the record, not one person in the world would argue that the Shaolin Monastery is EVIL or qualifies as "Ick-Factor." At least not anymore.

Also can be likened to many European Monasteries who took in orphans and impoverished children in the middle ages so that they would be raised in a setting that actually cared for them, instead of having to live on the streets or in slums.

For reference, Shaolin is one of the oldest styles of Self-Defense Martial Arts in the world. The Monastery having been founded in 477 A.D.
As luck would have it, I'm pretty familiar with Shoalin. My brother was a shoalin instructor for years. That said, I appreciate the effort to make sure I understood the reference (I mean that sincerely, not in a snarky way).

And again, I'm not saying the Jedi are evil. I don't think they are.

But (IMO), there is definitely an "ick-factor" to taking a child from his home and raising him in complete and total servitude, based entirely on that child's genetic disposition. You may disagree, and that's fine. But I think there's merit to opposing a practice like that.

It's a noble cause, yes, but there is a strong argument against those practices. I mean, it's a requirement for the Jedi that if a child is old enough to have any choice in the matter, he's not allowed to join them. Anakin was 10 years old and was "too old." He was only accepted because he was the chosen one.

But I cannot stress enough (as I've stated in every post I've made) that I don't think the Jedi are evil. They're not.

And I do think the Sith are unquestionably evil.

I'm just saying the Jedi have some practices that skirt the line between right and wrong. They control other people's minds. Even good people (Boss Nass wasn't bad). They steal. They raise children to serve their cause. They lie. They kill. They literally cheat (Qui Gon cheated at the dice game to free Anakin).

There's an example of each act above in the movies. Sometimes, more than one example.

There's very little the Jedi won't do in the name of the preserving their idea of justice.
"I know."

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
08.20.2013 , 04:21 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by Vecke View Post
Thanks for the reference. As luck would have it, I'm pretty familiar with the Shoalin (my brother was a shoalin instructor for years).

And again, I'm not saying the Jedi are evil. I don't think they are.

But (IMO), there is definitely an "ick-factor" to taking a child from his home and raising him in complete and total servitude, based entirely on that child's genetic disposition.

It's a noble cause, yes, but there is a strong argument against those practices. I mean, it's a requirement for the Jedi that if a child is old enough to have any choice in the matter, he's not allowed to join them. Anakin was 10 years old and was "too old." He was only accepted because he was the chosen one.

But I cannot stress enough (as I've stated in every post I've made) that I don't think the Jedi are evil. They're not.

And I do think the Sith are unquestionably evil.

I'm just saying the Jedi have some practices that skirt the line between right and wrong. They control other people's minds. Even good people (Boss Nass wasn't bad). They steal. They raise children to serve their cause. They lie. They kill. They literally cheat (Qui Gon cheated at the dice game to free Anakin).

There's an example of each act above in the movies. Sometimes, more than one example.

There's very little the Jedi won't do in the name of the preserving their idea of justice.
Yeah, no. If you knew anything about History during Feudal Europe, you would know about the Craftsman Guilds. Or heck the relationship between a Knight, Squire, and Page.

In Feudal Europe, people were apprenticed to a craftsman's guild at extremely young ages (13 to 15 years of age). The parents of these children had to pay the guild to take the child as an apprentice. And the child learned the entire trade by memory. They didn't have text books like we have now, they didn't have computers like we have now. You had to memorize EVERYTHING.

And that's just for the relatively safe jobs like Masonry, and Blacksmithing. A Knight had to select a student basically from birth. The Page who was hired around the age of 5 to 8 years, was essentially a live in servant. The Squire was a Page who had reached the age of about 12 to 13, and was seen as mature enough to learn how to fight. Older Squires responsibilities often included following their Knights into battle as Shield or Standard Bearers. Meaning they had to be good enough to fight beside their Knight in heavy combat. A Squire would not become a Knight himself until around the age of 30 in some cases.

It is in fact the Page (Apprentice) - Squire (Padawan) - Knight (Knight) Relationship that is most clearly modeled by the Jedi Order. But this kind of student-teacher relationship existed in almost every culture between the 1200's to 1600's. Heck, the Freemason's are essentially the modern day embodiment of one of those ancient Craftsmen Guilds that has managed to survive into the modern era.

And actually, the Jedi have accepted older students before. Take post mind-wipe Revan as an example (though that may or may not have happened because they already knew he had training). Take Luke Skywalker for an example. Obi Wan could have insisted on training him from the moment he carried him away from the birthing chamber. Instead he opted to let Luke stay ignorant of the fact that he was force sensitive for around 17 years and was older than Anakin when he started his training (BY A LOT).

Also, Jedi Mind Tricks aren't Mind Control. They are what people who are fans of Mind Control Fiction (such as myself) like to call "Gentle Telepathic Persuasion." For an example of outright mind control you would be looking at the Imperius Curse from Harry Potter, not the Jedi Mind Trick. And even that is borderline safe when compared to what those in the know call "Mind Rape" which is essentially what Bastila helps the Jedi Council do to Revan.

I don't recall where the Jedi have actually stolen anything... unless you are lumping that in together with Qui Gon's Cheating at Dice to get Anakin. But what you forgot to mention about that Dice Game was that Watto was in all likelyhood using weighted dice himself. So the proper question is... is cheating a cheat in order to get a net positive outcome really a bad thing?

And really, being raised by the Jedi Order is hardly the worst fate most of these children could have. They have proper medical care, are fed, have warm beds to sleep in at night, are taught how to defend themselves from would be assailants, are taught manners, they are allowed to interact with politicians (something which most people never get the opportunity to do). Simply put these kids have some of the best living conditions in the Galaxy.

Arguing that killing is bad... you might as well be arguing that a person with a Black Belt is a bad person simply because they have to own a license because their own fists count as deadly weapons. And said license permits them to use those weapons if they feel that their person is in danger of lethal harm.
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

Vecke's Avatar


Vecke
08.20.2013 , 04:49 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
Yeah, no. If you knew anything about History during Feudal Europe, you would know about the Craftsman Guilds. Or heck the relationship between a Knight, Squire, and Page.

In Feudal Europe, people were apprenticed to a craftsman's guild at extremely young ages (13 to 15 years of age). The parents of these children had to pay the guild to take the child as an apprentice. And the child learned the entire trade by memory. They didn't have text books like we have now, they didn't have computers like we have now. You had to memorize EVERYTHING.

And that's just for the relatively safe jobs like Masonry, and Blacksmithing. A Knight had to select a student basically from birth. The Page who was hired around the age of 5 to 8 years, was essentially a live in servant. The Squire was a Page who had reached the age of about 12 to 13, and was seen as mature enough to learn how to fight. Older Squires responsibilities often included following their Knights into battle as Shield or Standard Bearers. Meaning they had to be good enough to fight beside their Knight in heavy combat. A Squire would not become a Knight himself until around the age of 30 in some cases.

It is in fact the Page (Apprentice) - Squire (Padawan) - Knight (Knight) Relationship that is most clearly modeled by the Jedi Order. But this kind of student-teacher relationship existed in almost every culture between the 1200's to 1600's. Heck, the Freemason's are essentially the modern day embodiment of one of those ancient Craftsmen Guilds that has managed to survive into the modern era.

And actually, the Jedi have accepted older students before. Take post mind-wipe Revan as an example (though that may or may not have happened because they already knew he had training). Take Luke Skywalker for an example. Obi Wan could have insisted on training him from the moment he carried him away from the birthing chamber. Instead he opted to let Luke stay ignorant of the fact that he was force sensitive for around 17 years and was older than Anakin when he started his training (BY A LOT).

Also, Jedi Mind Tricks aren't Mind Control. They are what people who are fans of Mind Control Fiction (such as myself) like to call "Gentle Telepathic Persuasion." For an example of outright mind control you would be looking at the Imperius Curse from Harry Potter, not the Jedi Mind Trick. And even that is borderline safe when compared to what those in the know call "Mind Rape" which is essentially what Bastila helps the Jedi Council do to Revan.

I don't recall where the Jedi have actually stolen anything... unless you are lumping that in together with Qui Gon's Cheating at Dice to get Anakin. But what you forgot to mention about that Dice Game was that Watto was in all likelyhood using weighted dice himself. So the proper question is... is cheating a cheat in order to get a net positive outcome really a bad thing?

And really, being raised by the Jedi Order is hardly the worst fate most of these children could have. They have proper medical care, are fed, have warm beds to sleep in at night, are taught how to defend themselves from would be assailants, are taught manners, they are allowed to interact with politicians (something which most people never get the opportunity to do). Simply put these kids have some of the best living conditions in the Galaxy.

Arguing that killing is bad... you might as well be arguing that a person with a Black Belt is a bad person simply because they have to own a license because their own fists count as deadly weapons. And said license permits them to use those weapons if they feel that their person is in danger of lethal harm.
First of all, stating that a practice has historical reference doesn't negate the validity of arguing against the practice. You might think it's fine to take a child and insert them into a life of servitude. That doesn't mean those who disagree are wrong. It means they don't agree. Qui Gon says outright to Anakin, "Becoming a Jedi is not an easy task, and even if you succeed, it's a hard life." He wanted to make sure this was what Anakin wanted. And yet the Jedi choose that life for young children, based purely on their genetics. You really think there's no moral ambiguity to that practice?

As far as mind control, Qui Gon used the force to convince Boss Nass to give them a transport to Naboo. You can parse words all day, but it was using the force to influence another sentient creature's mind so he could take something that didn't belong to him. He tried the same thing with Watto. Watto made it absolutely clear that Republic credits had no value on Tatooine, yet Qui Gon tried to get him to take them anyway, so he could get the ship parts. Neither Watto nor Boss Nass were evil, yet Qui Gon used the force to trick them into giving him things that didn't belong to him. Again, I'm genuinely surprised that you don't see any moral ambiguity here.

And I'm sure I don't have to go into lying here. Obi Wan looked Luke right in the eyes and lied to him about his father. He can spew "point of view" nonsense all day, but he was lying.

And the black belt analogy isn't applicable because a black belt only kills in defense. Their "license" doesn't permit them to kill in the name of Justice. They can't just go and kill a president because they think he's evil. Yet Mace was going to kill Palpatine, not out of self defense, but because he knew Palpatine was evil and dangerous. Luke told Obi Wan outright that Vader was still good, but Obi Wan didn't care. He made it clear to Luke that his only option was to kill Vader. Lucky for the galaxy, Luke didn't follow that advice.

Look, I'm actually on your side on this debate. I think the Jedi are the good guys. I really do.

I just happen to think it's intellectually dishonest to just blindly disregard any and every criticism of the Jedi. They were flawed. Their system was flawed. That's stated outright in the Episode III novel. Yoda realizes during his fight with Palpatine that the Jedi lost because they had refused to evolve and grow. He realized the dark side was winning because the Jedi had become too entrenched in dogma while the Sith evolved.
"I know."

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
08.20.2013 , 05:27 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by Vecke View Post
First of all, stating that a practice has historical reference doesn't negate the validity of arguing against the practice. You might think it's fine to take a child and insert them into a life of servitude. That doesn't mean those who disagree are wrong. It means they don't agree. Qui Gon says outright to Anakin, "Becoming a Jedi is not an easy task, and even if you succeed, it's a hard life." He wanted to make sure this was what Anakin wanted. And yet the Jedi choose that life for young children, based purely on their genetics. You really think there's no moral ambiguity to that practice?

As far as mind control, Qui Gon used the force to convince Boss Nass to give them a transport to Naboo. You can parse words all day, but it was using the force to influence another sentient creature's mind so he could take something that didn't belong to him. He tried the same thing with Watto. Watto made it absolutely clear that Republic credits had no value on Tatooine, yet Qui Gon tried to get him to take them anyway, so he could get the ship parts. Neither Watto nor Boss Nass were evil, yet Qui Gon used the force to trick them into giving him things that didn't belong to him. Again, I'm genuinely surprised that you don't see any moral ambiguity here.

And I'm sure I don't have to go into lying here. Obi Wan looked Luke right in the eyes and lied to him about his father. He can spew "point of view" nonsense all day, but he was lying.

And the black belt analogy isn't applicable because a black belt only kills in defense. Their "license" doesn't permit them to kill in the name of Justice. They can't just go and kill a president because they think he's evil. Yet Mace was going to kill Palpatine, not out of self defense, but because he knew Palpatine was evil and dangerous. Luke told Obi Wan outright that Vader was still good, but Obi Wan didn't care. He made it clear to Luke that his only option was to kill Vader. Lucky for the galaxy, Luke didn't follow that advice.

Look, I'm actually on your side on this debate. I think the Jedi are the good guys. I really do.

I just happen to think it's intellectually dishonest to just blindly disregard any and every criticism of the Jedi. They were flawed. Their system was flawed. That's stated outright in the Episode III novel. Yoda realizes during his fight with Palpatine that the Jedi lost because they had refused to evolve and grow. He realized the dark side was winning because the Jedi had become too entrenched in dogma while the Sith evolved.
I think you need to define "A life of servitude" because when I think of a "life of servitude" I am thinking of Slavery as it was practiced in the United States between 18th and 19th Centuries. And I cannot comprehend how you are saying that the Jedi Order is doing anything approaching that. If your argument is that taking children and raising them in a monastic environment is somehow wrong, then I am afraid that history right up until the present day is sorely against you.

Many branches of the Christian Church still run Orphanages where in the children are given strict religious upbringings, and many of those same children go into religious occupations when they grow up. And don't you dare go arguing that Priests are pedophiles or some weird crap like that, because the sad fact is that although there are a few deviants in the Churches Hierarchy, there are vastly more genuinely good and caring people in the same hierarchy. And before you claim indoctrination, it is no more indoctrination to raise a child in a religious upbringing than it is indoctrination to raise a child believing the values of a capitalistic society as is done in most public schools in America.

Further, what you are arguing, about moral ambiguity, is largely coming from your understanding of morals as they exist in our society here on Earth in our modern day society. What you are trying to do is essentially compare Blue and Orange Morality systems. What is a good idea for us here on Earth in the present day, need not necessarily be a good idea, or even make sense to the people of the Star Wars Universe. That said, you are also trying to argue that a Monastic Lifestyle such as the one that the Jedi practice, is inherently evil. And unfortunately for you, history has shown that those practicing a Monastic lifestyle are some of the most grounded and caring individuals on the planet.

Okay... as far as Mind Control vs. Persuasion goes... it breaks down like this: In the case of Mind Control the person actually goes in to the other person's mind, and rearranges the thought patterns or manipulates them continuously for an extended period of time, causing the victim to act very much like a puppet on it's strings.

In the case of Mental Persuasion, it is more along the lines of the inductor saying something offhand that explains the desired results while tugging on certain centers of the inductee's mind to enhance receptibility to that suggestion. Essentially what you end up with with Mental Persuasion is an effect very similar (but slightly more powerful than) to real world hypnosis, only far more easy to pull off in a short amount of time, and without as much risk of it being resisted.

Now what you may not know about real world hypnosis, is that it is not Mind Control. Real World Hypnosis cannot cause you to do anything which is directly harmful to yourself, or which you really do not want to do. It can be used to put you into a trance where you are more receptive to suggestion, and where you are able to do things you normally would not be physically capable of doing. But it cannot be used to do things which would harm you. Mental Persuasion is much the same, in that it cannot be used to cause you to do something which would inherently harm you. It can however be used with far more liberty than hypnosis when it comes to the power of suggestion. Which is why Boss Nass did something that was completely unlikely for him to have done otherwise. And yes, your right about his use of the Force vs. Watto, I had forgotten about that. But then, it turned out that Watto's species is immune to Mind Tricks anyways so it didn't matter. As for his stealing from Boss Nass, as far as I am concerned, he only borrowed the ship, he had every intention of returning it after the fact, and probably did so at that huge celebration at the end of episode I.

As for Obi Wan's "Lie,"

Obi Wan: "Oh by the way Luke, before we go on this grand journey to rescue the Princess from the Galactic Republic, I want to inform you that it was your father who was largely responsible for the deaths of the vast majority of the Jedi Order, and who is currently second in command of the Galactic Empire and who likely ordered the raid that killed your Aunt and Uncle."

I can just see how telling Luke that up front would send Luke into a spiral of rage towards the Dark Side of the Force right off the bat. Perhaps lying to Luke was for the best?

Actually... about the whole Black Belt thing. You really need to study up on your Japanese History. The role the Jedi serve in the Galactic Republic is essentially equivalent to the role that the Samurai fulfilled in Feudal Japan. And yes, it was possible for a Samurai to rebel against his Feudal Overlord and attempt to kill him. Dishonorable as it may be for the Samurai, this caste of people was known as the Ronin. That is essentially what Mace Windu, and later Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda became when they attempted their overthrow of Emperor Palpatine.
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

Sarlegant's Avatar


Sarlegant
08.20.2013 , 09:10 AM | #86
" Any historian will admit that our largest, most valuable, important, and/or impactful advancements as humans come from adversity and conflict."

Somehow because something is used during war, even advanced during war, yourself and "any historian" will admit it came from adversity and conflict.

No one doubts war leaders use any and all technologies etc to advance and/or increase their war capabilities.
Some were created for war, found peacetime uses. Some were created during peacetime, and found uses in war.

Giving credit for the automobile, to adversity and conflict? Seriously?
Even listing the Tampon in this discussion of largest, most valuable, important, and/or impactful advancements as humans is ridiculous.
The Submarine??? Thats for war, pretty much only used for war, outside of a few very small craft used for exploration.

I could go down your list, or just create an alternate list.
As the world has never truly existed without wars, it's pointless to attempt to prove we'd be exactly where we are today and having never fought the first war.

I do appreciate you pointing out this author... just the kind of books I've enjoyed reading... but just because I have not read this author doesn't prove I wasn't reading books close to 30 years before he wrote it in 1991.

Vecke's Avatar


Vecke
08.20.2013 , 11:28 AM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
That said, you are also trying to argue that a Monastic Lifestyle such as the one that the Jedi practice, is inherently evil..
I'm not going to continue this particular debate because there's absolutely nothing I can say that will alter your opinion in any way. And that's fine. I just have a rule about forums: When an impasse is obvious, stop debating. And with all due respect, if you don't think the Jedi live a lifetime of servitude, there's really nothing to debate. We'll just have to agree to disagree there.

However, please let me state - again - I do not think the Jedi are evil. I do not think the Jedi lifestyle is evil. I have clearly stated - over and over and over - that I think the Jedi are good.

There is a giant difference between "morally ambiguous" and "evil."

In nearly every single post I've made about this, I've specifically said I do not think they are evil.

So I just wanted to clear that up.
"I know."

Oxades's Avatar


Oxades
08.20.2013 , 05:51 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
To quote a famous old man: "Remember, with great power. comes great responsibility."

I know, it's cliched as hell, and from another universe entirely. But just because the Sith are taught to seek power doesn't mean that they can't use that power responsibly.
Except the Sith are not taught to “use that power responsibly” There taught to use their power for personal gain.

Thylbanus's Avatar


Thylbanus
08.20.2013 , 07:50 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Sarlegant View Post
" Any historian will admit that our largest, most valuable, important, and/or impactful advancements as humans come from adversity and conflict."

Somehow because something is used during war, even advanced during war, yourself and "any historian" will admit it came from adversity and conflict.

No one doubts war leaders use any and all technologies etc to advance and/or increase their war capabilities.
Some were created for war, found peacetime uses. Some were created during peacetime, and found uses in war.

Giving credit for the automobile, to adversity and conflict? Seriously?
Even listing the Tampon in this discussion of largest, most valuable, important, and/or impactful advancements as humans is ridiculous.
The Submarine??? Thats for war, pretty much only used for war, outside of a few very small craft used for exploration.

I could go down your list, or just create an alternate list.
As the world has never truly existed without wars, it's pointless to attempt to prove we'd be exactly where we are today and having never fought the first war.

I do appreciate you pointing out this author... just the kind of books I've enjoyed reading... but just because I have not read this author doesn't prove I wasn't reading books close to 30 years before he wrote it in 1991.
Well the Tampon was just for S&Gs. I threw that in to be funny, hence the parenthesis, but it is true.

Automobile. Yup. The first self-powered land vehicle was made by Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot. The first was a prototype, the next two... for the French Army. The first combustion engine land vehicle was developed by Karl Benz. Yes, the very same Benz in Mercedes-Benz, and we all know that was for the German Army.

Submarines (and by extension, submersibles) having been a great boon to marine biology and biochemistry industry. It is the last untamed space on Earth, their importance will only grow. There are currently about 40 deep submersibles, 300+ submersibles, thousands of submersible ROVs, but you are correct, that there are no known submarines in private hands. By contrast there are 20 aircraft carriers, 28 cruisers, 169 destroyers, 49 missile subs, and 398 attack subs, active WORLD WIDE.

We can take a glimpse into the world if there wasn't the major wars that drove Europe to be technologically advanced. Take a look at the Americas. Christopher Columbus wrote about the Arawak people,
Quote:
"They…brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks’ bells. They willingly traded everything they owned…. They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance…. With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."
The Native Americans were not even prepared for the likes of the European. The Americas were truly the land of plenty and there were practically no major wars. I say this as there were no large, nation building conflicts. The largest Empire was that of the Inca at 2 mil sq. km. or 772,000 sq. mi. Compared to the Roman Empire, under Trajan, at 6.5 mil sq. km. The Qing Dynasty, under Qianlong, at 14.7 mil sq. km. The Mongol Empire, under Kublai Khan, with 33 mil sq. km. Heck, the landmass of the U.S. is 9.8 mil sq. km.

War, as a concept recognized by Europeans, was not even imagined. The most warlike, the Aztec were brought into conflict with their neighbors because they needed slave labor. They were the closest culture to view war as the Europeans did. Had Cortez not landed when he did, they may have taken over most of North and Central America. Still, their whole warrior culture was based around live capture. The capture, restraint, and imprisonment rivaled that of other cultures, even later in history. I'm certainly not suggesting that the Native Americans were not violent, but the impetus for such conflict is always available resources. Something that the Americas had plenty of.
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Spetulhu's Avatar


Spetulhu
08.21.2013 , 08:18 AM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
I think you need to define "A life of servitude" because when I think of a "life of servitude" I am thinking of Slavery as it was practiced in the United States between 18th and 19th Centuries. And I cannot comprehend how you are saying that the Jedi Order is doing anything approaching that.
Servitude isn't necessarily slavery outright. There's other systems that for long times were more common in Europe, with different degrees of limitations on freedom. Serfdom of different types where you held a plot of land for a lord and in return for his protection repaid him in goods or service weren't going out of fashion in Central and Eastern Europe until the end of the 19th century. These people were generally bound to their land (they needed the lord's agreement if they wished to leave) and didn't have that many options for getting out. Taking a job as a servant, maybe, or enlisting as a soldier if the lord was expected to provide the local king with such.

The system of serfdom is forbidden in the same text where the UN condemns slavery - it's seen as just another form of slavery. Edit: so the question is - can you leave the Jedi Order?