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Wakalord's concerns/ideas for DPS assassins/shadows

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Jedi Consular > Shadow
Wakalord's concerns/ideas for DPS assassins/shadows

DaftVaduhhh's Avatar


DaftVaduhhh
07.27.2013 , 02:54 AM | #11
Kitru I'm trying to address the key concerns of the Shadow PvE/PvP community, while addressing the concerns of the remainder of the PvP community.

If you look at it from the perspective, the objectives are clear:

Raise average DPS
Increase AoE options
Keep Shadow Strike in check as DPS goes up
Ensure there is regular enough burst so people don't complain about a nerf to Shadow Strike.

Upon reading it over after I posted, my first thought was "maybe a reduction on Force Breach damage with the change," so in that sense I definitely agree with you.

The point of the cost reduction on SS is to give Balance an emergency burst move that doesn't break the bank as much, especially in early levels. From memory SS is approximately worth a little under 2x DS/CS without a proc. That needs to change.

Additionally, the rotation for Balance is immensely simple, and needs a skill cap. An off-GCD move helps with that. With infil, the damage is there, but it's locked behind the force cost of proc abilities. The tank rotation becomes slightly more complex, perhaps more in line with other tanks.

Perhaps give the aforementioned armour bonus with the off-GCD move as well to reinforce the benefits of a good rotation. At no point have I assigned the delta percentages for the changes, (except hinting at up to a 20% reduction on SS before factoring in talent reductions), because that would clarify the kind of balancing I'm looking for; there'd be a bit to do there.

I hope that clarifies my methodology, and I'd be open to hearing estimates on where Shadow DPS would be with just the off-GCD change and a consistent double IT SS, as well as the auto-crit change to Balance, but feel that this doesn't address concerns with regards to low level play, nor in PvP given how every other DPS has a legitimately powerful AoE spec or is a powerful AoE class.

So far, the biggest concerns I have are how Force Potency would be utilised as Balance, and if the CD would be manageable if used on 2x Project in a 11-20s window.
Daftvaduhh - 55 Shadow - GM of <Beyond Redemption> (The Harbinger)
La-femme - 55 Sage, Woklobster - 55 Guardian, Opfreely - 55 Sentinel
Drworm - 55 Commando, Rollface - 55 Vanguard, Leeloo'd - 55 Scoundrel, Rolling-deep - 55 Gunslinger

DaftVaduhhh's Avatar


DaftVaduhhh
07.27.2013 , 03:31 AM | #12
Ok some quick napkin math suggests the base boost from Low Slash would be around 200-250 dps, with a 500 and 120 dps boost to Infil & Balance respectively (using the best dummy parses I have seen as a reference).

Given that projected DPS for Infil in an actual ops fight is 2900 DPS now with 72 BiS, this boost would likely make Infil OP, hence the SS nerf. Low Slash would most definitely soften the PvP blow suffered through this change.

Balance would become competitive under these initial changes, though I have not factored the use of project, which would slide into a value just below a non-crit DS before a +dmg modifier is brought in. A fair estimate would then be replacing Sabre Strike once every 30s pre-boost, for a gain of around 16 DPS.

Doubling the damage of project with this proc would then boost this to a 78 DPS gain over existing values. So there's 100 DPS with CDs for those who want to push it with Balance under my proposed changes. That said, it's 6 hits in a 5 min fight, a mediocre PvP benefit and probably worth dropping out of the concept altogether in favour of a new burst mechanic or an overall buff to damage output in the tree.

New thoughts Kitru?
Daftvaduhh - 55 Shadow - GM of <Beyond Redemption> (The Harbinger)
La-femme - 55 Sage, Woklobster - 55 Guardian, Opfreely - 55 Sentinel
Drworm - 55 Commando, Rollface - 55 Vanguard, Leeloo'd - 55 Scoundrel, Rolling-deep - 55 Gunslinger

thejollygreenone's Avatar


thejollygreenone
07.27.2013 , 12:12 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by DaftVaduhhh View Post
Given that projected DPS for Infil in an actual ops fight is 2900 DPS now with 72 BiS, this boost would likely make Infil OP, hence the SS nerf. Low Slash would most definitely soften the PvP blow suffered through this change.
Quote:
projected DPS
this is what i'm talking about, no infiltration is actually achieving remotely close to that number. let's also take a look at how classes ACTUALLY behave as well as what the math shows. if only these changes were made infiltration/deception would still have loads of things wrong with it in pve. i really hope the community doesnt become balance/madness tunnel visioned.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.27.2013 , 01:21 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by DaftVaduhhh View Post
Ok some quick napkin math suggests the base boost from Low Slash would be around 200-250 dps, with a 500 and 120 dps boost to Infil & Balance respectively (using the best dummy parses I have seen as a reference).
I'd be curious to see your napkin math, mainly because, as an ability off of the GCD without any cost, it shouldn't vary *at all* for any spec unless there are explicit DPS increase talents. As it hits at roughly 80% of the damage of a Double Strike/Clairvoyant Strike (the 50% increase to crit damage that Balance gets actually makes the two average out to the same damage) though it'll likely get nerfed a bit more than than (look at the tweak to Energy Blast's damage when it was taken off GCD: it got a hefty reduction in damage so that, when you added a basic attack to it, it only did about 10% more than it did before; this means you could likely expect a 50% nerf in damage, assuming they keep the same design construct). Based on that, you could expect to see, at most, a 200 DPS theoretical increase for both DPS specs and, more realistically, a 100 DPS increase.

Quote:
New thoughts Kitru?
I wasn't saying *anything* about it not increasing average DPS. It does that pretty effectively though pretty much the *entire* method that it accomplishes it is through your Low Slash addition/fix/tweak rather than through any of your other changes.

My problem is with *how* you're accomplishing your desired goals. You're either making changes for change's sake (Low Slash triggering Infiltration Tactics and Shadow Wrap) in an attempt to justify a pet concept that doesn't really have a place (off-GCD Low Slash) or you're doing something without any real purpose (reducing Shadow Strike's damage/cost and increasing DS/CS).

When you get rid of the arbitrary/pointless changes you're suggesting, it can really be broken down into "FiB should always crit" and "Low Slash should be completely changed from its current form into a completely new ability for all Shadows that is a free off-GCD damage attack".

On top of that, your suggestion that FB be turned into a safe AoE by default is just ludicrous on its face.

Rather than attempting to increase DPS by arbitrarily changing an existing attack into something *completely different* and attempting to justify it by changing a bunch of other stuff that currently works perfectly fine, just increase the damage by modifying existing capabilities.

Have some kind of +crit talent in Balance to make up for the huge losses of crit thanks to the tweaked DR curve and Balance's *massive* reliance on crit thanks to having fully 75% of its damage dependent upon the surge talents. Provide some kind of single tick damage dealt on Balance's DoTs if said DoT is already on the target if they clip so that it eases up on the required precision to play it perfectly. Create *some* kind of mechanism that provides some degree of cleanse resistance to Balance's DoTs (dealing damage or bouncing the DoT to the cleanser; dealing damage when the effect ends early; replacing with a weaker DoT; applying some substantial debuff when it's cleansed off; etc.). Create *some* Infiltration tactics variant for Balance, even if it's just a DoT-triggered version of Shadow Wrap.

Fix the problem with Shadow Technique procing off of Force Breach so that it puts your Breaching Shadows generation on the 4.5 ICD without actually being useful. Increase the damage from Judgement so Infiltration is actually as good during the Execute phase as Peckenpaugh seems to think that they are. Punch up the damage on Force Breach or Project for Infiltration in order to increase average damage without drastically increasing spike damage capability.

For AoE, *just provide a friggin' new AoE to all Shadows*. Make it a channel so that Tank Shadows aren't going to use it (since attacks would cause pushback). Barring that, replace Low Slash or add a new attack of some kind (like, maybe, a nuke where you're standing/landing when you use Phase Walk) for Infiltration and change Lambaste so that, rather than triggering your Force Technique, it cleaves any DoTs on one target to all of the targets. ST attacks priorities, barring the need for Balance to get some softening on the level of precision required and Shadow Strike to be added in *somehow*, are fine. You don't need to turn the existing ST strings into AoE strings. It's the AoE priorities that need to be revisited since, for Infiltration, it's a *single* ability (Whirling Blow and more Whirling Blow!) and, for Balance, it's only 2 (FiB and Whirling Blow with, guess what, *more* Whirling Blow!). They don't need a repurposed ST attack. They need a completely new AoE attack/combo simply provided.
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thejollygreenone's Avatar


thejollygreenone
07.27.2013 , 01:39 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Fix the problem with Shadow Technique procing off of Force Breach so that it puts your Breaching Shadows generation on the 4.5 ICD without actually being useful. Increase the damage from Judgement so Infiltration is actually as good during the Execute phase as Peckenpaugh seems to think that they are. Punch up the damage on Force Breach or Project for Infiltration in order to increase average damage without drastically increasing spike damage capability.
THANK you! this is all infiltration REALLY needs, anything else added to infiltration is probably unnecessary.

DaftVaduhhh's Avatar


DaftVaduhhh
07.29.2013 , 10:20 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I'd be curious to see your napkin math, mainly because, as an ability off of the GCD without any cost, it shouldn't vary *at all* for any spec unless there are explicit DPS increase talents. As it hits at roughly 80% of the damage of a Double Strike/Clairvoyant Strike (the 50% increase to crit damage that Balance gets actually makes the two average out to the same damage) though it'll likely get nerfed a bit more than than (look at the tweak to Energy Blast's damage when it was taken off GCD: it got a hefty reduction in damage so that, when you added a basic attack to it, it only did about 10% more than it did before; this means you could likely expect a 50% nerf in damage, assuming they keep the same design construct). Based on that, you could expect to see, at most, a 200 DPS theoretical increase for both DPS specs and, more realistically, a 100 DPS increase.

...

On top of that, your suggestion that FB be turned into a safe AoE by default is just ludicrous on its face.
The variance in my estimate for Low Slash reflects that it was guesswork, with no math put in beyond working out the estimated dps once I had established a value (factoring in the armour count of the Ops dummy) and CD.

The smart AoE was for Infil's FB only, given how much it would hamper the rotation to avoid that attack in PvP, but that can be revisited.

I'm working off the assumption the Devs don't really want to give us another ability, given the way they hacked apart Balance and gave us Phase Walk.

Quote:
Have some kind of +crit talent in Balance to make up for the huge losses of crit thanks to the tweaked DR curve and Balance's *massive* reliance on crit thanks to having fully 75% of its damage dependent upon the surge talents.
I suggested this for both trees as a high-tier talent.

Quote:
Fix the problem with Shadow Technique procing off of Force Breach so that it puts your Breaching Shadows generation on the 4.5 ICD without actually being useful.
Was not aware of this but agree 100%.

Quote:
Increase the damage from Judgement so Infiltration is actually as good during the Execute phase as Peckenpaugh seems to think that they are. Punch up the damage on Force Breach or Project for Infiltration in order to increase average damage without drastically increasing spike damage capability.
Increasing sub 30% damage means that Devs have to create fights that suit the mechanic, I would rather that they simplify or remove this process and think about how they can make fun and unique fights without worrying about discounting individual classes beyond the range/availability of attacks. You can see that ranged is king right now, and I think dancing around such points is the cause of that.

Shadow Strike, Shoot First, Back Blast and their mirror abilities need to be tapered down by perhaps 10%. It is the *first and most obvious* step to rebalancing without mass-whining. Then, you boost up other things to bring DPS in-line. To ignore that concept and complain about a reliance on crits without crit bonuses is quite strange. You're certainly going to hear people screaming about 12+k SS crits even if the ability goes untouched through the buffs.

Quote: Originally Posted by thejollygreenone View Post
this is what i'm talking about, no infiltration is actually achieving remotely close to that number. let's also take a look at how classes ACTUALLY behave as well as what the math shows. if only these changes were made infiltration/deception would still have loads of things wrong with it in pve. i really hope the community doesnt become balance/madness tunnel visioned.
That's a rough estimate for a 5-6.5 minute fight with a normal burn phase, for an Infil player that is doing around 2600-2700 DPS on a dummy. Factor in a CS being replaced with a Spinning Strike every 6s, the slightly smaller amount of auto-attacks due to the low cost of Spinning Strike to CS, and the 6% increase to all damage on a mob below 30% and if the burn phase is a standard one, DPS sky rockets.

That's the problem right there, that to meet low-end bracket of acceptable 'dummy' DPS, Shadows need a normal burn phase: take that out of a fight, and it becomes problematic. They've re-engineered fights for this in several ways (more add phases, longer burn phases, damage boost phases) but honestly if you guys think my way of rebalancing Shadows is unnecessarily complex, you should be tearing strips off of BW for how they chose to nerf Shadows to suit the PvP community's concerns.
Daftvaduhh - 55 Shadow - GM of <Beyond Redemption> (The Harbinger)
La-femme - 55 Sage, Woklobster - 55 Guardian, Opfreely - 55 Sentinel
Drworm - 55 Commando, Rollface - 55 Vanguard, Leeloo'd - 55 Scoundrel, Rolling-deep - 55 Gunslinger

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.30.2013 , 01:15 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by DaftVaduhhh View Post
honestly if you guys think my way of rebalancing Shadows is unnecessarily complex, you should be tearing strips off of BW for how they chose to nerf Shadows to suit the PvP community's concerns.
I don't think that your ideas are complicated. I think they're arbitrary. You could achieve the same increases in DPS while actually using methods that aren't centered around the arbitrary desire to include a default off-GCD attack. Shadow don't *need* another attack tacked on. They *need* is for their existing mechanisms to be improved.
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DaftVaduhhh's Avatar


DaftVaduhhh
07.30.2013 , 05:47 AM | #18
I'm not sure you understand what the word 'need' means. :P

Ok, how about my Force Breach idea becomes this new AoE attack similar to how I described, and there's a redesign on Force Breach while in Force Technique to add a burst mechanic, while maintaining the nerf to SS, buff to other attacks, high-tier crit talents, and scrapping the SS buff in favour of a bonus to force damage?

I still think a Low Slash redesign would be favourable as well in terms of a skill cap, but if Shadows become AoE & Single target pressure in DPS specs, I think that will satisfy the PvP & PvE crowd, and justify a melee class in light armour.

Giving Balance Shadows another button to press would be a welcome change.
Daftvaduhh - 55 Shadow - GM of <Beyond Redemption> (The Harbinger)
La-femme - 55 Sage, Woklobster - 55 Guardian, Opfreely - 55 Sentinel
Drworm - 55 Commando, Rollface - 55 Vanguard, Leeloo'd - 55 Scoundrel, Rolling-deep - 55 Gunslinger

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
07.30.2013 , 08:27 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Fix the problem with Shadow Technique procing off of Force Breach so that it puts your Breaching Shadows generation on the 4.5 ICD without actually being useful. Increase the damage from Judgement so Infiltration is actually as good during the Execute phase as Peckenpaugh seems to think that they are. Punch up the damage on Force Breach or Project for Infiltration in order to increase average damage without drastically increasing spike damage capability.
increase Max Stack size to 4 but only consume 3 stacks,
the chance for Force technique to trigger isn't all that good excluding some abilities from Proccing it is the easy way out.
I have enough of the easy solutions
Infiltration tactics was so nice because most of the time you had it after your opening FIB you would proceed with your normal Setup and then SS and often you'd proc the next SS only two or three Seconds later
people didn't reach optimal DPS so they took the easy way out instead of Solving the QOL issues they tried to make it so easy you can count to 18 while playing.

something else i thought of lately in Balance & Infiltration
remove the Heal from Battle Readiness and:
increase its uptime
or reduce the cooldown
or reduce the ICD of the techniques and infiltration tactics & Force Strike for it's Duration

it's a mainly Offensive & Force Management CD it's simply so bad in its supposed Role that it was considered the easy way to give shadow DDs another Def CD, one they didn't need.

Spoiler


move masked assault one Tier down and maybe lock it to Force-&Shadow-technique (or remove the DR from tank Battle Readiness, if masked assault Uptime is to high remove Resilience that's 80% done already anyway because again Bosses Completely Ignoring half our Def CDs is the Easy way to keep Shadows from being OP)
though I don't have the slightest Idea what to do with the Force hm maybe for offtanking but that can be changed to Force-&Shadow-Technique only so, no Problem.
and the Added Force might well make it Possible to get Project back into Balance Ability list (even if its just once every 60sec) and cut saber strike out of it.

give some sort of QOL improvement to ALL the dot/Proc using Specs
give some sort of Cleanse Protection
maybe if someone dies with all 15 Force Suppression Stacks reset FIB but I don't mind leaving AOE to others as long as Single Target Damage&Survivability are fine
(don't count the Execute DPS increase when calculating single Target DPS as a Tradeoff for having such weak AOE Damage for Example)
look over the Talent Trees there are so many bad talents that require way more points then they deserve
remove Force-Technique from Shadowy Veil you indirectly encourage Balance players to use Project
btw Shadow's Respite is in tier one, changes gameplay and adds another Button to Balance List
the easy Solution would be to remove Shadow's Respite
increase Force Potency Crit% to autocrit for Balance Shadows we don't have enough Force attacks to wait for the CDs to reset

Quote: Originally Posted by DaftVaduhhh View Post
I'm not sure you understand what the word 'need' means. :P

Ok, how about my Force Breach idea becomes this new AoE attack similar to how I described, and there's a redesign on Force Breach while in Force Technique to add a burst mechanic, while maintaining the nerf to SS, buff to other attacks, high-tier crit talents, and scrapping the SS buff in favour of a bonus to force damage?

I still think a Low Slash redesign would be favourable as well in terms of a skill cap, but if Shadows become AoE & Single target pressure in DPS specs, I think that will satisfy the PvP & PvE crowd, and justify a melee class in light armour.
theres no need to change any mechanics of the attacks there wasn't even any need to change the Number of targets affected by FIB that was the most likely reason to change how Balance Shadows regenerated Force -> witch most likely lead to Lambaste, easy solution to increase AOE DPS that resulted in Dumped down Gameplay

nor was there any need to have Battle Readiness Heal in all Specs, buffing it's Damage/ Force Regeneration would have been much preferable. again an easy Solution Fixing the Perceived lack of an Ability

I have no Idea what was the Reasoning behind the Removal Instant Force Lift.
It really Bugs me that I can't even make a Guess, it wasn't PVP Knight&Smuggler kept their instant Mezz (and theirs is AOE...).


Quote: Originally Posted by DaftVaduhhh View Post
Giving Balance Shadows another button to press would be a welcome change.
even more Buttons? are you crazy? the people who play Balance can't even count to 18 as it currently is!
we have to remove some more abilities!


[TINFOIL HAT]it could be Favoritism[/TINFOIL HAT]
but I can't belive they would be so Stupid, it's the easy Solution to assume the Defs crap on Balance (both, Balance and balance ) because they Favor One Class over the other.
and what they did with Shadow Tank Gameplay proves they can do it Right.
they didn't take anything away, instead they allowed us to play the spec it was Obviously meant to be played if you looked over the Tree. and the Addition&Implementation of Shadow Wrap was just as Perfect the small difference in proc% is a bit of a hindrance but it's minor enough and the few HPS more or less don't matter at the moment anyway.

so People, stop hacking on the defs they might do some stupid things but that's just criticizing them with Knowledge the didn't have during PTS because so few played the Specs there,
and now they have to deal with the same Inertia why Raids still use Shadow Tanks.

thejollygreenone's Avatar


thejollygreenone
07.30.2013 , 11:06 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by DaftVaduhhh View Post
That's a rough estimate for a 5-6.5 minute fight with a normal burn phase, for an Infil player that is doing around 2600-2700 DPS on a dummy. Factor in a CS being replaced with a Spinning Strike every 6s, the slightly smaller amount of auto-attacks due to the low cost of Spinning Strike to CS, and the 6% increase to all damage on a mob below 30% and if the burn phase is a standard one, DPS sky rockets.
first of all, 2600 is a number only two infiltration shadows have EVER been able to reach. two. so if we're gunna take a shadows dps lets do a realistic number, shall we? in pre KD gear an infiltration will be lucky to break 2500. and as to your 30% burn point, go play infiltration shadow in a boss fight and see how long that phase lasts, and how much of a dps increase you'll actually get. i promise you the only increase you will see is after a drop because we have trouble sustaining dps after a minute and a half. so by the time a boss gets to 30% and all this becomes available, we have another 20 seconds, maybe, to use it. from my experience this boost is only enough to make up for the dps you've already lost from the fight dragging on too long. TLDR; if you're going to speculate on a spec, please speculate on how said class ACTUALLY preforms.