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Didn't Palpatine violate the rule of two.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Didn't Palpatine violate the rule of two.

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
07.18.2013 , 05:18 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by BradTheImpaler View Post

As for Plagueis's death, though, there's really nothing in the rule of two that says you can't kill your master in his sleep. It might be seen as cowardly, or just as opportunistic, but it does the job.
The point of fighting his master in combat is to prove that he is stronger,otherwise the whole idea goes to hell.Killing him in his sleep doesn't prove he is stronger,as an apprentice should be when he kills his master.

Aximand's Avatar


Aximand
07.18.2013 , 10:46 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Jandi View Post
I think Bane intended that the confrontation between master and apprentice was meant to be face to face, power to power and save the scheming and backstabbing for other things. If the master has to spend the better part of his or her life wary of a cowardly sneak attack or some form of sabotage they cannot spend time growing stronger themselves, leading to weaker Sith cowering in a hole somewhere.

Of course, the whole rule of two is stupidity of the highest order, but I'm not going to delve into that.
Then Bane was a simple minded brute who wouldn't last long in a galaxy with people that were too smart for him to simply over power.
I'm not mean, you're just a sissy.
The Orange Pixel is the REAL Sith Emperor
I don't need luck, I've got ammo - Urdnot Grunt
Remember 4/22/2011. A day that shall live in infamy.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.18.2013 , 10:51 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aximand View Post
Then Bane was a simple minded brute who wouldn't last long in a galaxy with people that were too smart for him to simply over power.
Clearly you haven't read the Bane Trilogy, because this is at the heart of the Rule of Two. Only when the apprentice grows more powerful than the master can he overthrow him in single combat, to ensure that each generation is stronger than the next. Bane instituted the Rule so that the weak would not overthrow the strong through superior numbers or backstabbing. So no, he was not a brute, he realised the essential flaw in the Sith Order, and fixed it.

Aximand's Avatar


Aximand
07.18.2013 , 11:02 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Clearly you haven't read the Bane Trilogy, because this is at the heart of the Rule of Two. Only when the apprentice grows more powerful than the master can he overthrow him in single combat, to ensure that each generation is stronger than the next. Bane instituted the Rule so that the weak would not overthrow the strong through superior numbers or backstabbing. So no, he was not a brute, he realised the essential flaw in the Sith Order, and fixed it.
It was a jab at his assertion that Bane wouldn't expect treachery and cunning in the Apprentice taking on the Master.

On the subject of Sidious though, he WAS the culmination of the Rule of Two. He destroyed the Jedi Order and established a galactic Sith empire. The entire Rule of Two was leading up to him coming to power, once he was in, he could basically do whatever the hell he wanted.
I'm not mean, you're just a sissy.
The Orange Pixel is the REAL Sith Emperor
I don't need luck, I've got ammo - Urdnot Grunt
Remember 4/22/2011. A day that shall live in infamy.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.18.2013 , 11:09 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Aximand View Post
It was a jab at his assertion that Bane wouldn't expect treachery and cunning in the Apprentice taking on the Master.

On the subject of Sidious though, he WAS the culmination of the Rule of Two. He destroyed the Jedi Order and established a galactic Sith empire. The entire Rule of Two was leading up to him coming to power, once he was in, he could basically do whatever the hell he wanted.
He wouldn't and was very angry with Zannah after evidence implied she was using his age against him:

Bane: The mantle must be earned. You wanted to wait, to take it by default.

Zannah: Your taught me patience, you taught me to bide my time.

Bane: Not in this! Only the strongest has the right to rule the Sith! The title of Dark Lord must be seized, wrenched from the all-powerful grasp of the Master!


Using treachery and cunning violates the notion that the mantle of Dark Lord must be taken by force. Sidious did not take the mantle from Plagueis by force. And to your second point Bane would retort that if he was truly the pinnacle of the Rule of Two he would be able to prove it by destroying his master in combat.

turnoverla-page's Avatar


turnoverla-page
07.18.2013 , 12:52 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Aximand View Post
It was a jab at his assertion that Bane wouldn't expect treachery and cunning in the Apprentice taking on the Master.

On the subject of Sidious though, he WAS the culmination of the Rule of Two. He destroyed the Jedi Order and established a galactic Sith empire. The entire Rule of Two was leading up to him coming to power, once he was in, he could basically do whatever the hell he wanted.
killing someone in there sleep isnt really cunning

Jandi's Avatar


Jandi
07.18.2013 , 02:24 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Aximand View Post
It was a jab at his assertion that Bane wouldn't expect treachery and cunning in the Apprentice taking on the Master.

On the subject of Sidious though, he WAS the culmination of the Rule of Two. He destroyed the Jedi Order and established a galactic Sith empire. The entire Rule of Two was leading up to him coming to power, once he was in, he could basically do whatever the hell he wanted.
1000 years of hiding and he achieved what, 20 years of rule and the extermination of Jedi that lasted for 40 or so years till the order was back up? Great job guys, really.

Oh and please, stop deciding who asserts what in your head, it's rather idiotic.
Those that demand respect deserve only pity.

sell-dog's Avatar


sell-dog
07.18.2013 , 03:15 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Jandi View Post
1000 years of hiding and he achieved what, 20 years of rule and the extermination of Jedi that lasted for 40 or so years till the order was back up? Great job guys, really.
I've thought about this ratio before and I agree with you on the terrible quality of that ratio. However Bane created that rule with the idea that the only way to destroy the Republic and Jedi was to become the Republic and destroy it from within. As terrible a ratio as it may be his Order was the only Sith organization up that point to do successfully do those things. Consider even the Sith Empire in SWTOR. This Empire laid hidden for 1300 years, won a 30 year war (with the resulting territorial gain being nothing compared to the Galactic Empire), and all current signs point to a decline in their power. Plus they never exterminated the Jedi nowhere near the level of Sid's time. Even this Sith Empire created puppet gov'ts in the Republic and infiltrated key positions then turned. Similar idea to what Bane's Order did as well.
"What's the difference between hot and cold doughnuts?"
"The difference is: cold ones I can eat 8, hot ones I can eat 48!"

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
07.18.2013 , 03:25 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
The point of fighting his master in combat is to prove that he is stronger,otherwise the whole idea goes to hell.Killing him in his sleep doesn't prove he is stronger,as an apprentice should be when he kills his master.
The sheer ability to kill your master is what makes a pupil ready, not just being stronger.

Bane obviously realized that brute force isn't enough, and that to be a strong sith you need Intelligence, wisdom and cunning. If your master is stupid enough to get Pissed and let you kill him, then so be it
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Jandi's Avatar


Jandi
07.18.2013 , 05:29 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by sell-dog View Post
I've thought about this ratio before and I agree with you on the terrible quality of that ratio. However Bane created that rule with the idea that the only way to destroy the Republic and Jedi was to become the Republic and destroy it from within. As terrible a ratio as it may be his Order was the only Sith organization up that point to do successfully do those things. Consider even the Sith Empire in SWTOR. This Empire laid hidden for 1300 years, won a 30 year war (with the resulting territorial gain being nothing compared to the Galactic Empire), and all current signs point to a decline in their power. Plus they never exterminated the Jedi nowhere near the level of Sid's time. Even this Sith Empire created puppet gov'ts in the Republic and infiltrated key positions then turned. Similar idea to what Bane's Order did as well.
Oh I agree and I didn't mean to imply that it was a complete failure. I just find it incredibly... funny for some reason.
Those that demand respect deserve only pity.