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Kicking, where do YOU draw the line?


Gloomycakes's Avatar


Gloomycakes
06.21.2013 , 05:59 AM | #1
I've (whilst) leveling ran into quite a bit of situation where I wonder if I should remove someone from the group or not... Just wondered where other people draw the line. And when is behaviour so 'harmful' it deserves a report according to you? Do you ignore people easily just to avoid teaming with them again? Ever. At level 55 it's often so harmful someone else has pressed vote to kick way before I made up my mind. But needing only 2 votes to kick in a 4-man group makes me very wary of initiating one.

Wrongly specced (or wrong stance + refusing to change it, changing it back etc.)
Say someone queue'd as both DPS and Tank/Healer (something I often do thanks to free respec + field respec) but isn't able or simply isn't fulfilling his role. Especially while leveling and very rare times in 50/55s I came around DPS specced as healer or the other way around. Do you replace them so they (hopefully) won't do it again? Do you simply tell them and hope they won't do it again? Do you wait to see if they attempt to atleast fulfill their role? If so do you kick them when they obviously can't manage? And those in tanking stance? Who refuse to change when you ask? Do you ever compensate for it and play the role you didn't initially queue'd for, but are able to fill?

I'm always a bit torn on this aspect. The trees clearly state what you are, it's behind the trees name in brackets... There is this thing called field respec (200k is reasonably affordable if it's not your first character) so people are definitly in the wrong and in some cases they won't be able to complete the flashpoint due to them wanting a faster queue. So what do you do?

Ninja's
Oh my biggest bane and yet something I NEVER did something about, coming to regret it big-time yesterday. The need and greed system is very clear imo. If not you can always ask in chat if say need is also for a companion or just your character and greed speaks for itself, you're greedy and want to sell it to a vendor. But still I feel bad kicking them, do you kick ninja's? Ignore them? Report them? What do you do with them? Especially in end-game you know they're stealing a piece of gear that they often can't even use on a companion to vendor is for 12k, where-as some people would pay 200k + materials just to get something similar crafted...

Rude behaviour
Say people are being a bit too aggressive when they ask people to skip conversation (aka call them names) or insult other people because they are not exactly what he expects (or wants) from them. Obviously non-contructive and mean critisim, not helpful hints and tips or even tactics. Or DPS's that run to aggro the next mob whilst at ~50% health and with 3 mobs still to kill from the last pull etc. Or even just DPS's (or healers or whatever) pulling after being asked not to?

And ofcourse the toughest one...

The weakest link
Say you've been trying to tackle a flashpoint or GF-operation but your team simply can't pull through... Do you give up as a team or do you kick say that one weak DPS on enrage timers or the tank/healer when you see they simply aren't pulling their own weight or doing their job? Or that one person not doing needed tactics even after explaining them more than once?



I really hope your replies will help me decide where to draw the line in the future. Because I've noticed that often people that don't deserve it become the victim, like that tank that got kicked by both DPS simply because he said in a polite way that they should spec DPS if they also queue as DPS (they were specced as healer and tank, but came in a DPS and there's free field respec (200k once but w/e for crying out loud.) Or one of the many Ninja victims.

Elear's Avatar


Elear
06.21.2013 , 06:47 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Gloomycakes View Post
Wrongly specced (or wrong stance + refusing to change it, changing it back etc.)
Has both specs(with gear included where necessary) but entered FP while in other spec than his random role, that's fine, even when he has to go to fleet and respec. No problem.
Unless he's queued into wrong role, and refuses to do his job. Then by all means it's fine to kick him, altough deciding factor is how he behaves and if group can manage despite that setback.


Quote: Originally Posted by Gloomycakes View Post
Ninja's
Ninja happens. Sometimes it's "I saw everyone greeding this and my companion could really use some help" and sometimes it's "I need because FU". No need for kicks when you can resolve situation by talking. But if you can't, kick is way to go.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gloomycakes View Post
Rude behaviour
For "spacebar spacebar spacebar you idiots", best punishment is ignore + sit back and enoy your cutscenes.. For people ignoring requests to calm down or don't pull/knockback/something, kicking is best solution


Quote: Originally Posted by Gloomycakes View Post
The weakest link
At begining check for gear etc, if at least in theory he has chance to pull his weight. If you have to kick anyone for it, do it now.
If later it appears that your overall healing/dps is not enough, try some more, try to pull out more power, do what he's lacking. SM ops are not tighly balanced and one undergeared player shouldn't be a problem, so it's not only him. In FP it tends to be more severe, and there is no lockout, so it's not that big thing if you get kicked (unless it's bonus boss, then just skip it). Politely explain that your group can't complete it because he's clearly not good enough for it(or put it some other way :P) and that's it.
Unless it's someone with serious issues with mechanics and it's simply not possible to cover for him (mostly on puzzle bosses). No point in wiping constantly hoping he'll finally understand what he's supposed to do.

jasonthelamb's Avatar


jasonthelamb
06.21.2013 , 06:56 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Gloomycakes View Post
Wrongly specced (or wrong stance + refusing to change it, changing it back etc.)

Ninja's


Rude behaviour


The weakest link
.
I will submit a vote kick for any of these in a PUG, especially the first two - if they're a combination of the last one and its clear they're the weakest link (wearing willpower gear as a Marauder), then I'll be like "cmon... get that right."

I mainly run group finder with my guild, which prevents me from crossing the PUGs of SWTOR, but I know just how bad one person can be, I had someone tell me in HM BT that they were the tank, and we went at their pace (3/4 group was 55), tank stopped after every pull for 2-3 minutes, so I threw on my tank stance and tanked the rest of the way through.

Ocho-Quatro's Avatar


Ocho-Quatro
06.21.2013 , 09:00 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Gloomycakes View Post
Wrongly specced (or wrong stance + refusing to change it, changing it back etc.)
I know this example isn't from "while leveling".... but it's indicative of things I see across the board.

On monday I joined a pug group on my Vanguard tank for an 8-man SM S&V (GF)... I know pugging on a Monday night is always scary, but I'd had a busy RL week, and I still hadn't done it yet, so I was taking the last chance I'd get. We couldn't find a 4th dps, but we had our other 7 members, so we hit the GF for the last DPS, which was an insta-pop.

It was.... a DPS Shadow (using Shadow Technique).... Now, I know that HP isn't the perfect indicator of someone's gear, because more isn't always better, BUT it is a quick/easy way to see if someone is remotely close to what they should be..... Fully buffed, he had just over 21k HP. Now, the other 3 dps in the group, were geared appropriately for SM S&V, but nowhere NEAR being overgeared, so straight up carrying a DPS wasn't really going to be an option.

So I inspect the guy's gear, and his achievements, and noted 3 things:

1- Not a single piece of 63, 66 or 69 gear... Not a single augment. He was in a mix of leveling gear (green 51-53s/etc) 58s and a few 61s.

2- His achievements: Not a single one for ANY operation.

3- He was using a shield offhand.


I could have dealt with him not knowing the operation... I'll explain the fights everytime if people need to learn since it's their first time. I could even deal with his lack of gear, IF we had better geared other DPS, and maybe the chance that the character was an alt and he was a good player, just skipping other content (which the achievements kind of proved otherwise)....

I actually questioned him in chat about the shield issue, because I was curious "Hey, how come you're wearing a shield as a DPS shadow?"

His answer: "It's best in slot for me. Helps my dps, and boost my ability to survive. How do you know what's best for my class?"

The general consensus from the rest of the group that was talking on Vent... was that we needed a better geared DPS. So I very politely told the guy in chat, that I would recommend, that before queueing again for Scum and Villainy/Terror From Beyond, he do Eternity Vault/Karagga's Palace to get some Hazmat at least, and them maybe run some 55 HM Flashpoints and gear up a little bit, but that our group, wouldn't be able to carry him in this op.

All he said was "It'll be fine, stop telling me what to do, and let's do this thing."

-------> Initiate Vote Kick <-----------

HE WENT BALLISTIC!!!!

"[expletive] you guys! You [expletive]'ing mother[expletive]ers. I can't believe you would vote kick me, and tell me how to play my [expletive]'ing class!!! You [expletive]'s made me look stupid in front of everyone.."


There may have been more, I am not sure.... because at that point, he had made 7 people's ignore list.


All of that said...... I will tolerate a lot of nonsense in the Group Finder for Flashpoints (at level and hard mode) and Operations, at least when it comes to gear, or knowledge of the fights, or even knowledge of a person's class. (I have a Sentinel, Vanguard, Mercenary and Sage at 55, all Arkanian minimum geared, and I am about to have an end-game Assassin tank.... I don't know ALL the classes, but I know enough about a lot of them to give people pointers and advice if they are obviously struggling or underperforming.)

What I can't tolerate... leveling OR endgame: People who are undergeared, inexperienced, incapable of accepting advice AND/OR plain old stupid. I can usually deal with one of those conditions, but when all of them exist at one time?

------> Initiate Vote Kick <---------
Republic Gentlemen
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Quotation - Sentinel - Proper - Guardian - Period - Commando
Ellipsis - Juggernaut - Asterisk - Mercenary
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mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
06.21.2013 , 12:09 PM | #5
I have initiated a vote kick twice in any group content in this game, once kicked a very talented tank in HM D7 and the other time was a decent dps in HM FE. Both kicks were for the same reason, if someone is abusing and belittling another player I will initiate a vote kick. So that is my line.

All the rest I will vote for a kick, only if the person refuses to explain their actions or refuses to listen to the group, but usually this will not make me initiate a kick unless they get abusive instead of accepting friendly valid advice.

Disclaimer: I have been playing since launch, mainly a healer in group content and PUGs. I have voted to voice kick someone a total of 4 times. 3 times for abusing, belittling another player and once for a ninja. I have never been kicked, but then again I have done my best to always respect the group, always been geared appropriately, never q as anything but my proper role and always tried to be fair with gear and tried my best to be understanding of different players abilities and knowledge of the game and instances (I fail at this sometimes, but I fail in private at this).

Talonwk's Avatar


Talonwk
06.21.2013 , 12:30 PM | #6
Well last night I was playing my 17 Jug tank and I was kicked from a group in SM Hammer Station because I rolled need for an Orange set of medium armor strength based legs (Mara was in the group) that first of all was an upgrade over what I had (green medium armor legs from Korriban) and additionally I intended to rip the mods and put them into either heavy armor or adaptable legs. Needless to say I was surprised at first but I don't know maybe things have changed. Again it was a straight upgrade and would be a further upgrade if i ripped and put into heavy or adaptable armor. Wanted to get peoples opinions on this because I was surprised.

To the OP, in this same group I had two healing classes, a sorc and merc, and neither healed at all and I did not initiate a vote kick. I sucked it up and died at least 6-7 times and never said anything mainly because at level 17 I expect this kind of behavior and sadly accept it as part of the group finder. On a side note I was happy I was kicked because I just reqeued and got another group as a tank immediately and clear without any more wipes lol.
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Ocho-Quatro's Avatar


Ocho-Quatro
06.21.2013 , 12:49 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Talonwk View Post
Well last night I was playing my 17 Jug tank and I was kicked from a group in SM Hammer Station because I rolled need for an Orange set of medium armor strength based legs (Mara was in the group) that first of all was an upgrade over what I had (green medium armor legs from Korriban) and additionally I intended to rip the mods and put them into either heavy armor or adaptable legs. Needless to say I was surprised at first but I don't know maybe things have changed. Again it was a straight upgrade and would be a further upgrade if i ripped and put into heavy or adaptable armor. Wanted to get peoples opinions on this because I was surprised.
No way I would have kicked a level 17 tank over that.

Why?

Well..... anyone who has ever leveled a tank of ANY class... know that "tank" gear doesn't start showing up until well into your late 20s or so. And even then, it's rare to come across it. SO... leveling tanks, end up using armorings/mods/enhancements from anything that drops that has their mainstat.

Sadly, you got the short end of the stick because you are a Jugg....

Assassin/Shadow: All willpower gear, low level, will be applicable to you, because it's all LIGHT armor. The fact that it won't have mitigative stats on it, and will have Crit or Power/etc., is a non-issue, because tanking stuff doesn't really exist much (if at all honestly) at that level.... People probably wouldn't think twice about a tank needing on a piece like that....

Powertech/Vanguard: All Aim gear... applicable to you, because it's HEAVY armor. Same applies from above with regard to the secondary stats issue at that level.

Juggernaut/Guardian: Well... you are kinda screwed. Because while a medium armor peice might drop that is an upgrade for you, JUST because you use Heavy instead of Medium, the broad ideal is that "It's NOT for your class, it's for Marauders and Sentinels, and you are a douchenozzle if you NEED on it."

Would I get pissed at a Jugg/Guardian TANK or DPS in an at-level/storymode Flashpoint who rolled NEED on a medium armor piece or a dps piece of any kind, provided it was a Strength mainstat item????
Absolutely NOT.

Would I get pissed at a Jugg/Guardian DPS in a HM FP or Operation who rolled NEED on a Foestopper piece? (or vice versa)
Nope.

Would I get pissed at a Jugg/Guardian TANK in a HM FP or Operation who rolled NEED on a Foestopper piece?
Yes.
Republic Gentlemen
Apos'trophe - Sage - Apostrophé - Scoundrel - Parentheses - Shadow - Period - Vanguard
Quotation - Sentinel - Proper - Guardian - Period - Commando
Ellipsis - Juggernaut - Asterisk - Mercenary
Period - Operative - Backslash - Assassin
<Häagen-Dazs> / <Ben & Jerry's>
Daiquirí - Scoundrel - Ileítís - Operative
The Punctuation Legacy

Gloomycakes's Avatar


Gloomycakes
06.21.2013 , 01:26 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
I have initiated a vote kick twice in any group content in this game, once kicked a very talented tank in HM D7 and the other time was a decent dps in HM FE. Both kicks were for the same reason, if someone is abusing and belittling another player I will initiate a vote kick. So that is my line.

All the rest I will vote for a kick, only if the person refuses to explain their actions or refuses to listen to the group, but usually this will not make me initiate a kick unless they get abusive instead of accepting friendly valid advice.

Disclaimer: I have been playing since launch, mainly a healer in group content and PUGs. I have voted to voice kick someone a total of 4 times. 3 times for abusing, belittling another player and once for a ninja. I have never been kicked, but then again I have done my best to always respect the group, always been geared appropriately, never q as anything but my proper role and always tried to be fair with gear and tried my best to be understanding of different players abilities and knowledge of the game and instances (I fail at this sometimes, but I fail in private at this).
It's almost like hearing myself talk. I've always acted like that and haven't as of yet initiated a vote kick (hence this thread really) because I'd feel bad for the person and I try to talk to them, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I've only been kicked once and that was initiated by a tank that got upset I 'also' scavenged 1 droid or so per group leaving plenty for him simply to speed it up (he let us wait 5 minutes before joining, then about 1 minute per group to scavenge every single droid, hence I wanted to clear half of them up after about 10 groups.) He didn't like that it didn't all go to him I guess.

How-ever past few weeks I've very often come to regret not kicking Ninja's because they steal not just my gear, but also from people who might not have a cybertech sitting back in case of bad luck, or Ninja's. And also people queueing wrong, someone says something about it politely and they got kicked, or without saying anything got kicked if they didn't want to respec to the role they didn't queue for just so he/she could play it. (Luckily those teams were rare and I feel I might have encountered the same friends a few times, thank you ignore.) All those times I felt SO horrible I saw the 'mistakes' and didn't kick them to just have 'another' victim.

Thank you all for the replies btw I appreciate it!

I'd never consider anyone needing on their main-stat gear in low-level flashpoints a Ninja. If everyone greeded it and I know they have a companion with that stat I'd also keep quit. Though asking if you can need on something is ofcourse always preferred in that case. Rest just... urgh ^^

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Sarielle
06.21.2013 , 07:15 PM | #9
I'm pretty easy going and I don't care to heal a godawful tank who is polite, or the DPS who wanders off the wrong direction, or anyone who is badly specced or even rolls on the wrong gear as long as they're apologetic and willing to correct the mistake.

For me to votekick it has to be a mix of rude behavior or ninja looting with something else. If you're awful and ninja loot, gone. A jerk and you queued as a tank but are neither specced for it nor know what you're doing, gone. I've only initiated once and voted Yes to someone else's vote once that I recall.

That's about it really. Learning/sucking is OK in my book as long as you're decent company. I'm still learning myself so would be rather hypocritical if I kicked for that, eh?
Sarie : Self-righteous Seer
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Fiamma_Verde's Avatar


Fiamma_Verde
06.23.2013 , 08:51 AM | #10
For me if a player is being abusive to another one I'll vote kick. If some on is unfairly kicked, I'll drop group. For inapropriately geared or under skilled players, I'll leave it to the discretion of the person who will have to pick up the other's slack. For instance, if one DPS is undergeared I'll leave it to the other to decide since they're the ones who will have to meet enrage timers. If it's a super soft tank the healer can decide if they're able to keep them up.

Now a couple months ago I was on my healer and phased into Cademimu. First couple pulls were aweful, the tank would crumble in half a second, but I saw him using slow time so it took me a bit to check his gear (my bad, I know). When I did I saw that he was all in DPS gear with a shield generator (with DPS mods) equipped. I asked him if he had any DPS gear thinking that this was a pvp set, and he said that he didn't since he was just trying out kinetic spec. I was slightly over geared by this point, on my main, and it was 2 in the morning and figured that waiting for another tank would be futile so we decide to take it careful by ccing, waiting for cool downs etc.

We did fairly well, though with no mitigation the tank could only hold one or two enemies while I face tanked the rest. We got up to the bonus boss, downed him with no problems, but a nice DPS piece dropped which he needed on and won. That piece was a good upgrade for one of our teammates that qued and waited in que as a DPS. He refused to trade the piece since DPS was his main spec. No ****.

That was the last straw. It was too inconsiderate. We were carrying him through that instance, and going extremely slow for him. Even if tank wasn't his main spec, he qued as one (probably for shorter ques) and should have only needed on that if nobody else did. *Shrug* Bowdar tanked the rest of it, and we tried to have the DPS kite the final boss, but Risha was pretty lousy at removing shackles. Lucky a real tank joined in for the last boss. :P