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The REAL Most Powerful Force Users

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The REAL Most Powerful Force Users

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.28.2013 , 10:01 AM | #611
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Yet were not going by potential are we cause Galen never reached it right? If so then Anakin would be 3rd, given his potential had he not been severed and yet he still became powerful enough to kill Sidious in his older body whereas Galen couldn't do so.

So wouldn't Vader's prime(being ROTJ) > Galen Pre- ANH?

Oh...well I was assuming that you were saying that Jaina beat Caedus all by herself, when there were other factors in play.

Edit: Wait, wait, wait...so Jaina didn't beat Caedus in their 1st duel?
Well like I said, he achieved much of that potential - he is described as 'extremely powerful'. This is only logical given his age, and the fact he had received intensive Sith training from a young age. If he reached that potential, well then he'd be at the top of the list.

Given the potential he had, I can't really place him any lower, certainly not below Vader. We really have very little reason - other than the fact that Vader possesses a wider range of abilities - to think Vader is more powerful. And I'd not sure what this is about killing Sidious, in reality he would not stand a chance. That said according to Wookieepedia Marek did beat Sidious, but apparently that didn't happen in the novel (some clarification on that would be helpful.)

And no, Jaina only beat Caedus in the second duel. I'm nor sure if she was being aided by Skywalker in that duel or not.

EDIT: We also should remember that Marek was meant to be a negative version of Luke Skywalker, really everything in the game and outside it points to Marek surpassing Vader in Force ability.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.28.2013 , 10:07 AM | #612
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
, but apparently that didn't happen in the novel (some clarification on that would be helpful.)

He did not fight Sidious in the novel. He knocked Sidious down with Force thrown debris. One thing led to another and Marek ends up dead, but there was no actual fight.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
06.28.2013 , 10:12 AM | #613
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well like I said, he achieved much of that potential - he is described as 'extremely powerful'. This is only logical given his age, and the fact he had received intensive Sith training from a young age. If he reached that potential, well then he'd be at the top of the list.

Given the potential he had, I can't really place him any lower, certainly not below Vader. We really have very little reason - other than the fact that Vader possesses a wider range of abilities - to think Vader is more powerful. And I'd not sure what this is about killing Sidious, in reality he would not stand a chance. That said according to Wookieepedia Marek did beat Sidious, but apparently that didn't happen in the novel (some clarification on that would be helpful.)

And no, Jaina only beat Caedus in the second duel. I'm nor sure if she was being aided by Skywalker in that duel or not.

EDIT: We also should remember that Marek was meant to be a negative version of Luke Skywalker, really everything in the game and outside it points to Marek surpassing Vader in Force ability.
It didn't happen in the novel, they never fought. As for where this is coming from, I distinctly remember a quote either in this thread or some other with Sidious stating that Vader became powerful enough to kill him. Paraphrasing of course. Wait so now were going by potential here even when he died? Shouldn't we go up to where he was at before he died?...

But no in the 2nd duel with Caedus she wasn't, she took him by surprise stabbing him in the stomach before the duel, he was more concerned about his family, could have killed her at the end but instead just let her kill him.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.28.2013 , 10:19 AM | #614
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
As for where this is coming from, I distinctly remember a quote either in this thread or some other with Sidious stating that Vader became powerful enough to kill him.
I believe you are referring to the quote that I provided from Jedi vs. Sith, where Sidious states that Vader had become strong enough to kill him, but not to succeed him.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
06.28.2013 , 10:28 AM | #615
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I believe you are referring to the quote that I provided from Jedi vs. Sith, where Sidious states that Vader had become strong enough to kill him, but not to succeed him.
Ya that.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.28.2013 , 10:55 AM | #616
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
He did not fight Sidious in the novel. He knocked Sidious down with Force thrown debris. One thing led to another and Marek ends up dead, but there was no actual fight.
OK, I suppose I'm not demanding a quote but if anyone has a book handy I'd be interested. Just curious that's all.
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
It didn't happen in the novel, they never fought. As for where this is coming from, I distinctly remember a quote either in this thread or some other with Sidious stating that Vader became powerful enough to kill him. Paraphrasing of course. Wait so now were going by potential here even when he died? Shouldn't we go up to where he was at before he died?...

But no in the 2nd duel with Caedus she wasn't, she took him by surprise stabbing him in the stomach before the duel, he was more concerned about his family, could have killed her at the end but instead just let her kill him.
Yeah I'm aware of the quote, but to me it seems simply impossible. I mean other than chucking him down a chute while he's distracted if Vader charged Sidious head on, he'd subdue him with Force lightning with seconds. And if my some miracle that didn't work he could just throw him around with telekinesis, and is my some miracle that didn't work he could just trump him with his superior lightsaber skills. It just seems impossible to me.

But regardless, I'd rather look at what did happen and rather than what could. Also, I think your getting to bogged down in semnatics. Firstly there is no blanket means of gauging force power for everyone, it differs for each character. And secondly I'm merely highlighting that fact that Marek, possessing the potential of the most powerful force user ever, should be placed highly on the list. Even if he did not achieve that potential, even a portion of such ability is immense.

To explain further, if Marek had the potential to become the most powerful Force user ever, that means his Force ability must have been close to that of the Chosen One. Anakin himself by the age of 22 had already become one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, and Luke Skywalker after only 4 years of training became powerful enough to fight toe-to-toe with Vader.

However in both cases they were limited by their Jedi training which encouraged a steady learning curve. Marek was not limited by that, he received incredibly intensive Sith training from a young age and because of that came into his prime far sooner, embracing the dark side broke down any kind of boundaries Jedi training might have given. And if all it took for ROTJ Luke to defeat Vader completely and utterly was giving into the darkside, then I can see no reason why Marek, of a similar age and Force potential, would not surpass Vader also - bearing in mind that unlike Luke he had been immersed in the darkside from day one. Which makes up for Luke having a greater affinity.

Really, after 10 more years I reckon Marek would have fulfilled his potential. This seems to be the standard. Which means he achieved at least two thirds of his potential, potential which would have made him considerably more powerful than Sidious. I mean, if 'most powerful Force user ever' did translate into the affinity of the Chosen One, that would mean (given that Anakin could have been 60% more powerful than the Emperor) a third of Marek's potential would have made him more equal to the Emperor's power. So even my assuming 'most powerful Force user ever' does not mean Chosen One affinity, he must possess at least between 85-90% of the Emperor's power.

Oh and Aurbere, Jaina vs Vader - who wins? I'd quite like to wrap this up.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.28.2013 , 11:13 AM | #617
Here's the TFU quote, Beni:

Quote:
Murdering Darth Vader would accomplish nothing. Saving his friends might change the course of history.

Seen in that light, the decision was surprisingly easy..

A hail of shattered transparisteel and debris drove the Emperor back from Kota, breaking his concentration and freeing the Jedi Master from the fatal web of energy. Smoking and weak, Kota fell away and was caught by Garm Bel Iblis. The apprentice tossed them the comlink and advanced on Palpatine.

"Good," hissed the Emperor, his claw-like hands upraised between them like a weak old man fending off an attacker. Stembling, he fell to his knees. "Yes." He looked up at the apprentice. "You were destined to destroy me. Do it! Give in to your hatred!"

The apprentice stood over him for a moment with his lightsaber upraised. Its aqua light reflected in the eyes of the galaxy's Emperor as though it was the last thing he would ever see.

With a snap the apprentice extinguished the blade and lowered his arm.

Kota limped up behind him and put a hand on his shoulder.

"That's it, boy," he said with rough pride. "He's beaten. Let it go."
After which Palpatine attacks Kota again, prompting the apprentice to enter the lightning storm (quoted earlier).
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.28.2013 , 11:16 AM | #618
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Oh and Aurbere, Jaina vs Vader - who wins? I'd quite like to wrap this up.
It's a tough one to call, but I think I have to go with Jaina, but only barely, in my opinion.

It really is a tough one to call. Jaina has displayed excellent command of the Force, but I think Vader's use of telekinesis is superior. However, Jaina's other abilities are a league above Vader's own. Like I said, very close, but I lean towards Jaina slightly.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
06.28.2013 , 11:19 AM | #619
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
OK, I suppose I'm not demanding a quote but if anyone has a book handy I'd be interested. Just curious that's all.
Yeah I'm aware of the quote, but to me it seems simply impossible. I mean other than chucking him down a chute while he's distracted if Vader charged Sidious head on, he'd subdue him with Force lightning with seconds. And if my some miracle that didn't work he could just throw him around with telekinesis, and is my some miracle that didn't work he could just trump him with his superior lightsaber skills. It just seems impossible to me.

But regardless, I'd rather look at what did happen and rather than what could. Also, I think your getting to bogged down in semnatics. Firstly there is no blanket means of gauging force power for everyone, it differs for each character. And secondly I'm merely highlighting that fact that Marek, possessing the potential of the most powerful force user ever, should be placed highly on the list. Even if he did not achieve that potential, even a portion of such ability is immense.

To explain further, if Marek had the potential to become the most powerful Force user ever, that means his Force ability must have been close to that of the Chosen One. Anakin himself by the age of 22 had already become one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, and Luke Skywalker after only 4 years of training became powerful enough to fight toe-to-toe with Vader.

However in both cases they were limited by their Jedi training which encouraged a steady learning curve. Marek was not limited by that, he received incredibly intensive Sith training from a young age and because of that came into his prime far sooner, embracing the dark side broke down any kind of boundaries Jedi training might have given. And if all it took for ROTJ Luke to defeat Vader completely and utterly was giving into the darkside, then I can see no reason why Marek, of a similar age and Force potential, would not surpass Vader also - bearing in mind that unlike Luke he had been immersed in the darkside from day one. Which makes up for Luke having a greater affinity.

Really, after 10 more years I reckon Marek would have fulfilled his potential. This seems to be the standard. Which means he achieved at least two thirds of his potential, potential which would have made him considerably more powerful than Sidious. I mean, if 'most powerful Force user ever' did translate into the affinity of the Chosen One, that would mean (given that Anakin could have been 60% more powerful than the Emperor) a third of Marek's potential would have made him more equal to the Emperor's power. So even my assuming 'most powerful Force user ever' does not mean Chosen One affinity, he must possess at least between 85-90% of the Emperor's power.

Oh and Aurbere, Jaina vs Vader - who wins? I'd quite like to wrap this up.
Then it just makes being the Chosen One and being born from The Force all but null and void if someone else(other then a Skywalker) could reach that exact same potential to destroy the Sith.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.28.2013 , 11:27 AM | #620
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Then it just makes being the Chosen One and being born from The Force all but null and void if someone else(other then a Skywalker) could reach that exact same potential to destroy the Sith.
Well that's why I said that his potential falls short of the Chosen One. I interpret that statement in the same way I interpret the statement about Vitiate. He would have become more powerful than anyone up until that point which would not include those who came before him i.e. Luke Skywalker.

Either way destroying the Sith had little to do with potential, after all Anakin had his potential crippled, but he simply made the choice to save his son and fulfill the prophecy. Clearly Marek was never destined to reach his potential. So from a story perspective, it doesn't really matter.

Oh and thanks for the quote Aurbere, strangely Wookieepedia records the in-game version rather than the novel.