Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Vader's Suit vs Force Lightning

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Vader's Suit vs Force Lightning

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 03:22 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Kilikaa View Post
I would just like to point out something about the Luke example. We don't see it in the film, but Luke was in pain after the lighting he took. In fact, in The Truce at Bakura novel, it clearly states that he suffers from long term damage to his bones because of Sid's Force Lightning, causing lots of pain and fatigue. Luke we ordered to remain off his feet and even underwent several Bacta treatments to try and repair the damage. That damage took a long time to heal and he still never fully healed from it. And yes, Aurbere, I believe you are correct about him now being more susceptible to lightning attacks as a result. Good thing he knows how to use that lightsaber so well.

Luke didn't just shrug it off with no ill effects, as you suggest, Beni. He suffered greatly and for a long time from it. We just do not see it in the film. If Sidious had hit Luke with a full powered blast it would have killed him. We all know he was just torturing the man to death, making it as slow and painful as possible. Truce at Bakura shows just how much Luke suffered from that torture.
Well I'm not saying that Luke survived unscathed. I was merely pointing out that despite recieving similar voltages, Luke was able to drag his heavy, dying father to the hangar while Vader could barely stand.

I think that says something about how resistant Vader's suit is to lightning compared to a biological Force user.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.15.2013 , 03:45 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well I'm not saying that Luke survived unscathed. I was merely pointing out that despite recieving similar voltages, Luke was able to drag his heavy, dying father to the hangar while Vader could barely stand.

I think that says something about how resistant Vader's suit is to lightning compared to a biological Force user.
Remember that Palpatine was torturing Luke, but amped up the firepower when Vader picked him up. Clearly evidenced with Vader's skeletal form appearing when Luke's didn't.
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 03:58 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Remember that Palpatine was torturing Luke, but amped up the firepower when Vader picked him up. Clearly evidenced with Vader's skeletal form appearing when Luke's didn't.
I realise that, but there is a difference.

Luke received a sustained blast of 'normal' Force lightning.

Vader received short bursts of powerful Force lightning.

In the end, they likely received similar levels of 'voltage' so to speak. But Vader simply took more damage because of the vulnerability of his suit - given the disparity between the damage dealt. I'd say that Vader's suit is considerably more vulnerable to lightning that a biological Force user.

But I think were on the same page here. Which is good because I've got some other plans, I just wanted to get this out the way, and its not another vs series. Just something I thought would be fun.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.15.2013 , 05:32 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I realise that, but there is a difference.

Luke received a sustained blast of 'normal' Force lightning.

Vader received short bursts of powerful Force lightning.

In the end, they likely received similar levels of 'voltage' so to speak. But Vader simply took more damage because of the vulnerability of his suit - given the disparity between the damage dealt. I'd say that Vader's suit is considerably more vulnerable to lightning that a biological Force user.
I don't know. I don't think Luke and Vader are accurate comparisons. Luke was attacked with lightning meant to torture and slowly kill him. Vader took the full power of Sidious' Force lightning.

A more accurate comparison would be Vader to Mace Windu. But whatever, I guess.


Quote:
But I think were on the same page here. Which is good because I've got some other plans, I just wanted to get this out the way, and its not another vs series. Just something I thought would be fun.
Aw, I was hoping for a Vader vs. Agility thread. Don't do that!
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LordQordisz's Avatar


LordQordisz
06.15.2013 , 08:36 PM | #25
Vader got hit with Chain Lightning after Palpatine popped Recklessness.
Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken.

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
06.16.2013 , 12:25 AM | #26
First of all, I think you need to be very careful using The Force Unleashed as an example. Remember that the effects of the force in that series were greatly amplified. It's right in the title. It wasn't just Galen either. Although he is an exceptionally powerful wielder of the force, pretty much every force user in that series used the force casually at titanic levels of power.

The events of The Force Unleashed are cannon, but perhaps the details are a bit exaggerated. Leland Chee, I believe, once said that each medium is like looking at real events through a differently distorted lens. I believe this was in reference to the original Clone Wars Animated Series, in which Mace Windu took on an entire battalion of SBDs with just his fists and the force. Obviously what really happened that day was not Mace Windu imitating The Flash by machine gun punching 1000 SBDs into scrap.

If we must use The Force Unleashed as an example, we should use the events as described by the book, as they would be more grounded than the game. I read the books, but I don't remember how the fights were described. Further, even using the books, we should likely assume that the scale of the lightning wasn't quite as magnificent as portrayed, but the event of it effecting Vader would have still happened.

Next, in regards to Mace Windu, I don't know that I believe Sidious' lightening killed him instantly. Actually, many people aren't convinced it killed him at all. We don't see his death conclusively. If Darth Maul can come back from his defeat in the movies, Windu can survive that attack. Instead, what we see is Windu unbalanced by a one-two punch of being attacked by Anakin, then lightning and force blasted into the distance while he was off balance.

The lightning's effect on Sidious may be telling of the level of power in use at that moment, as well. I'm not sure the lightning itself caused Sidious' decay, it may have been drawing on the dark side that did that, but either way it speaks to an incredible level of power. He also kept the Jedi Order's premier combatant at bay with the force of the attack. It could be argued that Sidious' deformation was a ruse to bait sympathy from Anakin and the people of the Republic, however.

As for Luke, we know that the Emperor's stated purpose was to turn Luke to the dark side. Thus we can assume the level of lightning was at least not fatal in an immediate sense. We might assume that Sidious would prefer not to excessively damage his future apprentice. However, Sidious isn't one to make death threats idly, and he did tell Luke he would die for not slaying Vader. Also, Vader clearly feels his son is at immediate risk of death, and is moved to intervene. I take from this that the level of force in Sidious' attack was substantial, but only fatal in the longer term.

Even dealing with this lower level attack, Luke was effectively crippled. Granted, he was not fully trained to the level a knight of the old order would have been, and likely wasn't prepared for such an attack. Still, it says something that after being driven down by Luke, Vader is able to withstand a continuous assault of what would have to be Sidious' strongest lightning, hold onto him, move under his own power, and throw him into the reactor. Mace WIndu under similar circumstances was unable to defend himself from a force attack.

Also, Force Lightning clearly doesn't behave exactly the same as regular electricity, so it's exact effects on circuitry may be unknown. Force Lightning, for example, seeks it's target even over great distances. It does not seem to be drawn off to conductive surfaces. It can be drawn into a lightsaber, but this is likely a force technique of it's own, or perhaps a side effect of a lightsaber's containment field. When a lightsaber takes a hit from lightning, it's circuitry seems unaffected.

As such, we might assume that circuitry is damaged by direct hits from force lightning as it would be burned away, but it may not be drawn to, travel through and overload a circuit like normal electricity. This might in fact indicate that a mechanical being would be more resistant to the negative effects of a lightning attack, as their mechanical limbs might be capable of shutting down pain, which is a major factor in the stunning effect of the attack. The attack might also cause muscle spasms in biological limbs that might not be a problem for mechanical equivalents.

With that in mind, it might explain why Vader can fight through the attack without being crippled, but still comes away with damage having been done.

I don't think it is possible to separate Vader's ability to resist lightning and his suit's specific advantages and disadvantages without a direct canon source. The examples we have are all of the two of them together. We never see anyone else use Vader's suit, and indeed, the suit is so much a part of Vader, it may as well be considered an aspect of his being.

That said, I think we can say that Vader has a greater resistance to lightning as opposed to an unarmored opponent. Both basic electrical attacks and standard force lightning should be assumed to be less effective against Vader because of the additional layer of resistance offered by his armor. In the hands of a specialist like Galen or Sidious, Force Lightning can overcome this resistance and stun or damage Vader. Vader's suit should also be noted to have the disadvantage that if it does take significant damage, it's failing functions will impede Vader's ability to function himself.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.16.2013 , 05:00 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
First of all, I think you need to be very careful using The Force Unleashed as an example. Remember that the effects of the force in that series were greatly amplified. It's right in the title. It wasn't just Galen either. Although he is an exceptionally powerful wielder of the force, pretty much every force user in that series used the force casually at titanic levels of power.
Well lets also remember that the Force Unleashed cutscenes are canon. The first example I used was a cutscene and not in my opinion at all overpowered so I don't think there is any need for suspicion there. And for the second example I was drawing from the book, in which Vader actually disarms Marek but Marek hits him with a powerful burst of lightning which subdues him.
Quote:
As for Luke, we know that the Emperor's stated purpose was to turn Luke to the dark side. Thus we can assume the level of lightning was at least not fatal in an immediate sense. We might assume that Sidious would prefer not to excessively damage his future apprentice. However, Sidious isn't one to make death threats idly, and he did tell Luke he would die for not slaying Vader. Also, Vader clearly feels his son is at immediate risk of death, and is moved to intervene. I take from this that the level of force in Sidious' attack was substantial, but only fatal in the longer term.

Even dealing with this lower level attack, Luke was effectively crippled. Granted, he was not fully trained to the level a knight of the old order would have been, and likely wasn't prepared for such an attack. Still, it says something that after being driven down by Luke, Vader is able to withstand a continuous assault of what would have to be Sidious' strongest lightning, hold onto him, move under his own power, and throw him into the reactor. Mace WIndu under similar circumstances was unable to defend himself from a force attack.
I don't think Sidious had any intention of making Luke is apprentice at that point, he was going to kill him, just do it slowly. In fact he was just about to kill him which is why he amped up the voltage, but then Vader picked him up and threw him down the reactor. I don't think it can be classed as a 'low level attack' at all. It is Sidious' lightning after all.

But what's this about being crippled? How so? Luke may have suffered some long term joint pain but that didn't stop him from lugging an armored dead weight all the way to the hangar and become the most powerful Force user in existence. On the other hand, the only logical explanation for Vader being able to pick Sidious up and throw him down the reactor was sheer strength of will. The incidents on Kamino would suggest that he would have at least faltered after being subject to that level of voltage. So saying that his suit protected him from farm is simply impossible to hold.

I also don't think the circumstances with Windu were at all similar and I don't think a comparison can be made. Clearly it was the same level of voltage as both had their skeletons lit up, but Windu recieved the blast head on while Vader received brief sparks. Hence why his skeleton is only visible in brief flashes rather than a continual X-Ray effect. Which is why I believe Vader and Luke recieved the same amount of lightning, Luke's was a weaker but longer stream while Vader's was more powerful but much shorter and not full on.

And therefore, the disparity between the damage inflicted on them would indicate that a normal person is more resistant against lightning than Vader's suit. I mean, even if we accept that Vader received a higher voltage the disparity remains enormous. On one hand Luke seemed to suffer no immediate ill effects, and it was only a while after that a few chronic symptoms began to show through. On the other hand Vader's suit was irreparable and fatally damaged beyond repair, he was unable to stand without aid and had difficulty breathing, which without the dark side to sustain him led to his death. If Vader's suit really did over the resistance you suggest, he should not have died.
Quote:
Also, Force Lightning clearly doesn't behave exactly the same as regular electricity, so it's exact effects on circuitry may be unknown. Force Lightning, for example, seeks it's target even over great distances. It does not seem to be drawn off to conductive surfaces. It can be drawn into a lightsaber, but this is likely a force technique of it's own, or perhaps a side effect of a lightsaber's containment field. When a lightsaber takes a hit from lightning, it's circuitry seems unaffected.

As such, we might assume that circuitry is damaged by direct hits from force lightning as it would be burned away, but it may not be drawn to, travel through and overload a circuit like normal electricity. This might in fact indicate that a mechanical being would be more resistant to the negative effects of a lightning attack, as their mechanical limbs might be capable of shutting down pain, which is a major factor in the stunning effect of the attack. The attack might also cause muscle spasms in biological limbs that might not be a problem for mechanical equivalents.

With that in mind, it might explain why Vader can fight through the attack without being crippled, but still comes away with damage having been done.
I wouldn't say its much different. And I say that because Force lightning has the same effect on a person's body as a lightning strike would:

Prolonged exposure to intense electrical fields (such as a sustained current of Force lightning) caused most humanoids to experience sudden and massive calcification of their skeletal system; the abrupt drop in blood minerals provoked muscular micro-seizures all over the victim's body. ~ Wookieepedia

Note how Wookiee merely uses the effects of electrical fields on a person to describe the effects of Force lightining, indicating they are very similar in nature. I think the only real difference is that Force lightning can be controlled and directed which is why it would not be drawn to conductive surfaces en route to its victim. And really we have no reason to believe this is not the case. Sidious' Force lightning did extensive damage to Vader's suit, which is most noticeable in his changed breathing indicating his rebreather was fried. And this ultimately led to his death. And any source you will find will tell you this is the reason for his death.

And secondly on Kamino, when hit by lightning his body clearly spasms. And not just his biological body but his mechanical limbs also, if mechanical limbs are not effected as you say this would not have happened which in turn can only indicate that it was doing damage to his circuitry and wiring. In fact his suit actually emits sparks, now you might just say that that is the lightning but you won't find any other example of that happening in Star Wars lore. So I think making the assumption that Force lightning does not operate in the same way as lightning would create more problems than it solves.
Quote:
I don't think it is possible to separate Vader's ability to resist lightning and his suit's specific advantages and disadvantages without a direct canon source. The examples we have are all of the two of them together. We never see anyone else use Vader's suit, and indeed, the suit is so much a part of Vader, it may as well be considered an aspect of his being.

That said, I think we can say that Vader has a greater resistance to lightning as opposed to an unarmored opponent. Both basic electrical attacks and standard force lightning should be assumed to be less effective against Vader because of the additional layer of resistance offered by his armor. In the hands of a specialist like Galen or Sidious, Force Lightning can overcome this resistance and stun or damage Vader. Vader's suit should also be noted to have the disadvantage that if it does take significant damage, it's failing functions will impede Vader's ability to function himself.
Again I would disagree. While the insulation provided by his suit would be sufficient enough to survive a minor electrical field, such as the electric net that Wolf gave example, the Force lightning of most Force users is sufficient enough to bypass that insulation and do damage to the circuitry and wiring. I think the suit only gives his body protection, but the suit itself is vulnerable. Any resisting properties provided by the armor are negated by the fact is conducts electricity and is filled with short circuitable components. I don't think your conclusion can be reached.

But yes, Vader and his suit are almost one and the same. However Vader for short periods can function without his suit through sheer strength of will. Which is why I attempted to separate the two.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.16.2013 , 05:30 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by LordQordisz View Post
Vader got hit with Chain Lightning after Palpatine popped Recklessness.
XD Nice one.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.16.2013 , 06:27 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I don't know. I don't think Luke and Vader are accurate comparisons. Luke was attacked with lightning meant to torture and slowly kill him. Vader took the full power of Sidious' Force lightning.

A more accurate comparison would be Vader to Mace Windu. But whatever, I guess.
Again I don't think a comparison can be made. Simply put, Vader clearly did not take on the full power of Sidiou's lightning. Let's not forget that this is impossible given that Sidious was above him and the lightning attack not even aimed at him but just everywhere and without focus.

I'm mean really, just by comparing the two its obvious that while Sidious was emitting the same level of power, Vader was hit far less than Windu. Far far less.

Windu, complete full-on UNLIMITED POWER.

Vader, help I'm flailing and lighting going everywhere!

I mean we should note that Vader's skeleton flashes once or twice, while Windu's is lit up like a Christmas tree. And Luke may not have been getting unlimited power, but he wasn't exactly laughing. In the end this is Darth Sidious' lightning we are talking about here.

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
06.16.2013 , 08:33 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Kilikaa View Post
I would just like to point out something about the Luke example. We don't see it in the film, but Luke was in pain after the lighting he took. In fact, in The Truce at Bakura novel, it clearly states that he suffers from long term damage to his bones because of Sid's Force Lightning, causing lots of pain and fatigue. Luke we ordered to remain off his feet and even underwent several Bacta treatments to try and repair the damage. That damage took a long time to heal and he still never fully healed from it. And yes, Aurbere, I believe you are correct about him now being more susceptible to lightning attacks as a result. Good thing he knows how to use that lightsaber so well.

Luke didn't just shrug it off with no ill effects, as you suggest, Beni. He suffered greatly and for a long time from it. We just do not see it in the film. If Sidious had hit Luke with a full powered blast it would have killed him. We all know he was just torturing the man to death, making it as slow and painful as possible. Truce at Bakura shows just how much Luke suffered from that torture.
Exactly. Even by the time Truce at Bakura was over he STILL wasn't fully healed. Luke was in a lot of pain almost the entire book. Bacta and using the force is what sustained him during the bakura fighting.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy
Finished: Trooper, Agent, Knight, Inquisitor, Smuggler