Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Vader's Suit vs Force Lightning

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Vader's Suit vs Force Lightning

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 10:25 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Yeah, Sidious did destroy the armor, but it is Darth flippin' Sidious.

Considering that Vader willed himself back from the dead? Very much like Sion.
Oh I see what you mean by destroyed now. But yes, what Wolf said, this isn't about Vader, its about his suit. Let's not lose sight of that.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.15.2013 , 10:36 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I would disagree here Force lightning has a more adverse effect on Vader's suit than on a human person. In the same way that a lightning strike would damage a robot, more than a human. Mainly because humans are not made of conducting material, or possessing parts that can short circuit etc.
No argument there, but I think you severely underestimate the insulation in Vader's suit. Vader had augmented his suit with insulation specifically to protect his body from Force lightning.

Quote:
Case in point: after being subject to continual blasts of lightining from Darth Sidious, Luke Skywalker recovered almost instantly, able to carry his father (who I assume weighs a tonne) to the hangar. Whereas Vader, well he's entirely out of it. Did Vader recieve a higher voltage? I would not say so. Now yes you could see his bones and not Skywalkers, suggesting he did. But this is the way I see it: Sidious at that point was emitting a higher voltage, but less of it impacted. Therefore the few sparks that did were powerful enough to light up his skeleton, but because they were just sparks, collectively it was not as strong as the sustained, though weaker blasts, that Luke recieved.
Palpatine did amp up his Force lightning. Note that Mace Windu was instantly killed by the full power of Palpatine's Force lightning.

If Force lightning is as damaging to Vader as you say, why was he able to throw Palpatine down the shaft. You make the argument that most of Palpatine's lightning wasn't hitting Vader, but see here. At about the 2:00 mark, we see the majority of Palpatine's lightning arcing into Vader. Also note that more lightning bolts were hitting him as he lifted Palpatine up, though mainly centered around the head area.


Quote:
Yet Luke comes better off.
If by better off you mean suffering permanent side-effects, then sure. At least he's still alive.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Every other above average Force user?
Examples being? I mean, let's watch the scene again. Who is not going to be destroyed by that attack? You say every above average Force user, but you provide no examples. That lightning is being amplified by Kamino's storms and the fact that electricity and water don't mix well.

I'm not saying that Vader's invulnerable to lightning, but to claim that Force lightning is some sort of easy button is foolish at best, especially when you bring up examples of Vader being defeated by the Force lightning of exceptionally powerful Force users.

Also note this.

Again, not saying that he's invulnerable to it, just that he's not insta-killed by it. 'Insta-kill' not to be taken in the literal sense. Noted in the above video, Vader has a limited protection against Force lightning, which means that Force lightning isn't a trump card against him.

So, instead of you going through the trouble of responding in full, why don't we just some it up now. Vulnerable? Yes, but not to the point that any user of Force lightning can lay the smackdown of Vader.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
06.15.2013 , 11:11 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Really, unless there is a way in which you can dispute 1, 2 or 3 you cannot dispute that Vader's suit is vulnerable to lightning, and more vulnerable than a normal biological. Taking different interpretations from the examples is all well and good, but we could debate forever what exactly happened in those scenarios, whether exceptional circumstance were involved etc. but ultimately logic dictates that my argument is true. I'm just saying this because I don't want any argument based on this to be shot down in future debates for no real reason.
"he's more machine now than man, twisted and evil" He's MORE MACHINE THAN HUMAN.

That says it right there. Hell anymore machine and he'd be General Grevious.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 11:19 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
No argument there, but I think you severely underestimate the insulation in Vader's suit. Vader had augmented his suit with insulation specifically to protect his body from Force lightning.
Well like I said in 3. that is the case, but powerful lightning strikes have vaporized power lines on multiple occasions. Insulated power lines. And by vaporise, I mean vaporise. Now is Vader's suit had that much insulation, he would have been fried by Sidious' lightning. But its probably got stronger insulation, so it is only damaged, but severely nonetheless.

So yeah, I expect Vader saw that video and though "bejeezus, I better get me some insulation!"
Quote:
Palpatine did amp up his Force lightning. Note that Mace Windu was instantly killed by the full power of Palpatine's Force lightning.

If Force lightning is as damaging to Vader as you say, why was he able to throw Palpatine down the shaft. You make the argument that most of Palpatine's lightning wasn't hitting Vader, but see here. At about the 2:00 mark, we see the majority of Palpatine's lightning arcing into Vader. Also note that more lightning bolts were hitting him as he lifted Palpatine up, though mainly centered around the head area.
Well I'd assume he simply got an adrenaline rush, love conquers all and that. I mean even you cannot disagree with this as the incidents on Kamino would dictate that Vader would have at least faltered. Though its obvious his suit received heavy damage as Vader collapsed immediately after. Does this mean that Vader could use the sheer will of the dark side to overcome this weakness? Perhaps, but likely only if he was expecting it. Regardless this is about his suit.

As for your other point as I already said with Wolf, the shot makes it look like all the lightning is going to him but you cannot see Sidious' hands, from which it is streaming everywhere. Regardless, even if I admitted that he received the full force of his lightning it would not change the fact that his suit is weak against it. Which logic would dictate it is, the examples are merely demonstrating the argument, stripping them away doesn't change anything.

Quote:
If by better off you mean suffering permanent side-effects, then sure. At least he's still alive.
Well we don't know what these permanent side effects actually are, what we do no is that they were not serious enough to fry his internal organs - which is what happened to Vader's suit. And I think if their roles had been reversed, the outcome would be the same: screwed suit, pretty OK body - hardly life threatening.
Quote:
Examples being? I mean, let's watch the scene again. Who is not going to be destroyed by that attack? You say every above average Force user, but you provide no examples. That lightning is being amplified by Kamino's storms and the fact that electricity and water don't mix well.

I'm not saying that Vader's invulnerable to lightning, but to claim that Force lightning is some sort of easy button is foolish at best, especially when you bring up examples of Vader being defeated by the Force lightning of exceptionally powerful Force users.

Also note this.

Again, not saying that he's invulnerable to it, just that he's not insta-killed by it. 'Insta-kill' not to be taken in the literal sense. Noted in the above video, Vader has a limited protection against Force lightning, which means that Force lightning isn't a trump card against him.
I wasn't referring to that incident, but the first one, which I think most fairly powerful Force users would be able to recover from and fight back. We can't say for sure, but again the examples are just backing up the argument. They are not the argument itself. And the argument still stands regardless.

And yes, I've seen that video. In fact I was quite elated to find that someone actually thought a comparison could be made between the two. I personally think he underplayed Malgus's lightning, which isn't just average or restricted to bolts but maelstroms. But that's a different debate.

But let's remember, lightning isn't Vader's kryptonite. That's not what I'm arguing, what I'm arguing is that Vader's suit is vulnerable to Force lightning attacks, more so than a biological body. Which in turn means that lightning can be used as an argument against Vader, rather than it being shot down - and lets face it I could find many examples of that happening in previous debates. Which in turn gives me the impression that everyone thinks Vader is impervious to lightning, but hes not, he's weak against it.

Again, its not his kryptonite, but to quote Pokemon it is super effective against that suit. Which is a weakness.
Quote:
So, instead of you going through the trouble of responding in full, why don't we just some it up now.
Too late.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.15.2013 , 11:49 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[COLOR=#CC9E42]Too late.
Drat!

Okay. Having finally gotten your point, let me see what I can do.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well like I said in 3. that is the case, but powerful lightning strikes have vaporized power lines on multiple occasions. Insulated power lines. And by vaporise, I mean vaporise. Now is Vader's suit had that much insulation, he would have been fried by Sidious' lightning. But its probably got stronger insulation, so it is only damaged, but severely nonetheless.

So yeah, I expect Vader saw that video and though "bejeezus, I better get me some insulation!"
Ouch. I'm no physicist or weatherman, but I don't know if lightning is equivalent to Force lightning. Regardless, awesome video.

Quote:
[COLOR=#CC9E42]Well I'd assume he simply got an adrenaline rush, love conquers all and that. I mean even you cannot disagree with this as the incidents on Kamino would dictate that Vader would have at least faltered. Though its obvious his suit received heavy damage as Vader collapsed immediately after. Does this mean that Vader could use the sheer will of the dark side to overcome this weakness? Perhaps, but likely only if he was expecting it. Regardless this is about his suit.
It's likely that Vader continued to make modifications to his suit. If Empire Strikes Back and the ROTJ novel are any indication, we can clearly see that Vader wanted to kill the Emperor. It is highly likely that Vader would modify his suit to resist the Emperor's greatest weapon: Force lightning.

This is my assumption, but it seems reasonable considering what Vader was able to do under the pressure of Force lightning.


Quote:
Well we don't know what these permanent side effects actually are, what we do no is that they were not serious enough to fry his internal organs - which is what happened to Vader's suit. And I think if their roles had been reversed, the outcome would be the same: screwed suit, pretty OK body - hardly life threatening.
I would have to pick up Truce at Bakura again in order to say for sure.

Quote:
I wasn't referring to that incident, but the first one, which I think most fairly powerful Force users would be able to recover from and fight back. We can't say for sure, but again the examples are just backing up the argument. They are not the argument itself. And the argument still stands regardless.
Well most would recover from a single blast of lightning, but Vader was able to continue fighting after receiving a bolt of lightning in TFU 1. The duel continues on for another paragraph, the apprentice only gaining the edge due to Vader's slowness.

Quote:
And yes, I've seen that video. In fact I was quite elated to find that someone actually thought a comparison could be made between the two. I personally think he underplayed Malgus's lightning, which isn't just average or restricted to bolts but maelstroms. But that's a different debate.
He wasn't exactly happy about doing it, but I agree with his verdict.

I'll touch on the Maelstron bit in The BattleZone.


Quote:
But let's remember, lightning isn't Vader's kryptonite. That's not what I'm arguing, what I'm arguing is that Vader's suit is vulnerable to Force lightning attacks, more so than a biological body. Which in turn means that lightning can be used as an argument against Vader, rather than it being shot down - and lets face it I could find many examples of that happening in previous debates. Which in turn gives me the impression that everyone thinks Vader is impervious to lightning, but hes not, he's weak against it.

Again, its not his kryptonite, but to quote Pokemon it is super effective against that suit. Which is a weakness.
I don't think anyone has said that Vader is impervious to Lightning. Though Rhyltran stated that Vader is one of the most resistant to it in the entire mythos. No need to bring in a long-gone forumer into this.

What can be said, though, is that Vader possesses a limited resistance to Force lightning. Force lightning is repeatedly used as an insta-win argument against Vader (like in the Revan vs. Vader thread). However, not everyone has the amount of power to produce the lightning necessary to bring down Vader. Remeber that both Galen and Sidious are incredibly powerful Force users. Few are on Galen's level, and only one is on Sidious'.

Also, in Pokemon, a critical hit is 2x damage. I would argue that Lightning is roughly 1.5x damage, based on the strength on the individual.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 12:10 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
What can be said, though, is that Vader possesses a limited resistance to Force lightning. Force lightning is repeatedly used as an insta-win argument against Vader (like in the Revan vs. Vader thread). However, not everyone has the amount of power to produce the lightning necessary to bring down Vader. Remeber that both Galen and Sidious are incredibly powerful Force users. Few are on Galen's level, and only one is on Sidious'.

Also, in Pokemon, a critical hit is 2x damage. I would argue that Lightning is roughly 1.5x damage, based on the strength on the individual.
Vader possesses a limited resistance yes, but far less limited than an average Force user. Its certainly not an insta-win factor but against any powerful Force user it definitely has to be considered.

Lol, Pokemon. I think lightning can cause some serious damage against Vader's suit. Whether that kills him or not if a different story yes, but its certainly the biggest advantage any powerful Force wielding opponent would have.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.15.2013 , 12:28 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Lol, Pokemon. I think lightning can cause some serious damage against Vader's suit. Whether that kills him or not if a different story yes, but its certainly the biggest advantage any powerful Force wielding opponent would have.
Force lightning is normally the only advantage someone would have against Vader.

LOLs at the Pokemanz.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 01:27 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Force lightning is normally the only advantage someone would have against Vader.

LOLs at the Pokemanz.
True, true. But we'll leave that debate to the BattleZone, the next installment of which I eagerly await!

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.15.2013 , 01:41 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
True, true. But we'll leave that debate to the BattleZone, the next installment of which I eagerly await!
Shouldn't have to wait too much longer.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Kilikaa's Avatar


Kilikaa
06.15.2013 , 02:11 PM | #20
I would just like to point out something about the Luke example. We don't see it in the film, but Luke was in pain after the lighting he took. In fact, in The Truce at Bakura novel, it clearly states that he suffers from long term damage to his bones because of Sid's Force Lightning, causing lots of pain and fatigue. Luke we ordered to remain off his feet and even underwent several Bacta treatments to try and repair the damage. That damage took a long time to heal and he still never fully healed from it. And yes, Aurbere, I believe you are correct about him now being more susceptible to lightning attacks as a result. Good thing he knows how to use that lightsaber so well.

Luke didn't just shrug it off with no ill effects, as you suggest, Beni. He suffered greatly and for a long time from it. We just do not see it in the film. If Sidious had hit Luke with a full powered blast it would have killed him. We all know he was just torturing the man to death, making it as slow and painful as possible. Truce at Bakura shows just how much Luke suffered from that torture.