Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Vader's Suit vs Force Lightning

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Vader's Suit vs Force Lightning

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 07:56 AM | #1
...who wins?

Yes, I am disputing the claim that Vader's suit is resistant to Force lightning which seems to be the general consensus amongst many. This topic is likely to come up in Aurbere's BattleZone so to avoid debunking such a thread I thought I'd out source it here. May I first make it clear that I am disputing that Vader's suit is resistant to Force lightning not Vader himself. Obviously having any kind of armour covering you is going to protect you from such a power, however I'd like to point out that once Vader's suit dies, Vader dies - or at least is severely weakened.

But anyway, onto my argument:

1. Material: Vader's suit is made from durasteel, plasteel and obsidian. He has prosthetic legs and a prosthetic arm and hand. The suit, essentially, has a large amount of metal in it. And as we all know metal conducts electricity so if Vader were to be struck by Force lightning his suit would become electrically charged, effectively he would become a living conduit. Now I'm not science expert but I believe that will would at least cause the electricity to spread throughout his entire body and may even amplify its potency. Which leads me onto my next point.

2. Life Support: Vader's suit is filled with life support systems which unsurprisingly keep Vader alive, as well as increasing his durability through painkillers. However these systems are comprised of a great deal of circuitry and mechanisms. All such systems are vulnerable to high levels of electricity which could potential fry the circuits and destroy the mechanisms. Given that the material in his suit would cause the electricity to flow around his body at an amplified rate, it would be illogical to assume that such potent lightning would not cause some damage.

3. Insulation: Yes, it should be noted that the circuitry and wires are likely insulated, however high voltages of lightning e.g. lightning strikes, have the power to vaporise insulation and wires altogether. And we can assume that Force lightning is more powerful than a lightning strike. Vader's suit also had some form of insulation itself but this provided 'only partial protection' and given that Vader's armour becomes an electrical conductor when struck by lightning, and not all of Vader's life support systems are protected, I would support this judgement.

4. Examples: On several occasions, Vader's suit has be subject to Force lightning attacks. Both at the hands of his apprentice Galen Marek and his master Darth Sidious. Firstly, the battle onboard the Death Star. Neither Marek nor Vader gain an advantage over the other until Marek unleashes his lightning on him 'breaking the Dark Lord's momentum and forcing him onto his back foot.' Now this may not seem very considerable, but then there's this: 'Barely surviving the explosion, his armor and life support systems terribly damaged, Vader was unable to continue fighting.' This is directly after Marek throws an energy field generator at him which explodes. But wait, hasn't Vader survived such explosions before?

Yes, he has. When hunting down Lady Saro and Garoche Tarkin he survived a point-blank bomb explosion which 'he survived with almost no injury to himself.'

So why did this particular explosion do so much injury to his life support systems? It did not, the damage was done by Marek's powerful Force lightning which likely did extensive damage to his inner circuitry and wiring.

Sometime after Vader chose to clone Marek, the clone escaped after blasting Vader with Force lightning. Such a blast brought Vader to his knees causing his mechanical limbs to spasm and sparks to fly. Vader recovers from the attack, but he is clearly vulnerable. Marek much later subjects Vader to another blast of Force lightning which has similar effect, phasing the Sith Lord and once again bringing him down as he was 'severely damaged.' And while the blast was amplfied by the wet conditions this only manifests itself in complete submission rather than a temporary lapse. Now you may argue that Vader was faking his defeat, and while yes I agree that Vader allowed himself to be captured, I do not believe that is what he initially intended. As Vader disarmed Marek and seemed to want him to surrender to him. I believe Vader was very much defeated but simply did not choose to flee.

Several years later, Vader was also subject to Darth Sidious' lightning which eventually led to his death. The argument generally used here is that Sidious' lightning being more powerful than any other was simply to much for him. But I'd just like to point out there that despite having no armour so speak of at all, Luke Skywalker seemed relatively unharmed once the lightning had subsided. Secondly, take a look at the scene again. Notice how Sidious' lightning isn't even directed at Vader, but flying of everywhere with few stray bolts hitting Vader. He does not receive the full force, and while yes it was no doubt powerful as his skeleton is visible, he only recieved brief jolts rather than a full on blast like Windu, and yet it is still enough to completely cripple him. And, regardless, is clear evidence that either way Force lightning has the potential to do serious damage to his suit.

Now another argument made here is that 'isn't it so impressive that Vader managed to survive all the way to the hangar.' Yes, it is, by that doesn't change the fact that his life-support systems had failed and his body was slowly dying. He was crippled and incapacitated and eventually died.

5. Consensus: I am not alone in this believe, may I point out. Despite those in opposition to this idea saying that is is simply the case, as if it where fact. I have found many that disagree. Wookieepedia itself has multiple entries that highlight Vader's weakness:

Force lightning required a living conduit for the energy to be channeled; thus Darth Vader, despite being an immensely powerful Sith Lord, was never able to properly employ this ability, as he was in danger of dying from it.

Vader's cybernetics, as well as his artificial life support system, made him much more vulnerable to the damaging effects of Force lightning. This vulnerability would eventually contribute to his death.

Vader would attempt to compensate for this vulnerability to Force lightning by upgrading the armor with some sort of insulation, though this was only partial protection.


And so I reach the conclusion, that Force lightning has the edge over Vader's suit. It is clearly vulnerable to high voltages of electricity of which a burst of Force lightning is capable of producing. And despite his efforts to dampen it, I wouldn't say it hasn't worked. I'm happy to change my mind, but as of yet I've seen little evidence to convince me.

Force lightning wins.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
06.15.2013 , 08:58 AM | #2
Actually Vader did legit throw the fight against Galen, its pretty much implied that he didn't want to kill him in the novel. But anyway as to the Lighting thing, he is vulnerable to it yes however actually, Sidious when he was picked up if you notice the lighting going directly back and into Vader. It wasn't until we see him near the edge, that the lighting is all over the place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...3s5xj8I#t=198s

Now to Galen's lighting, yes it did momentarily bring him down but he didn't suffer any severe damage from it. If you notice, he just gets right back up as if nothing had really happened. During the duel at best all Galen's lighting did was serve as a distraction, up until near the end he kept a constant stream of it at Vader bringing him down, even then that was after the fact that Galen was disarmed and at Vader's mercy yet he didn't want to kill him as said.

In fact Galen actually exploited a weak point on Vader, which was caused by Juno who had one of his sabers that grazed Vader's chest panel which damaged it a little.

So really all Galen's lighting was, at best a distraction unless he kept it up but even that it only was because Vader was caught off guard and or Vader didn't want to kill him.

Now I know this isn't Force Lighting, however still it is a point.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...cture__14_.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...cture__15_.jpg

He survives an Electronet thrown on him, actually breaking out of it. (However if I am remember right this takes place before Vader improves his suit...but meh still.)

So at best, Lighting just serves as a distraction unless it is kept up. Vader has only succumbed to Lighting it seems, only when he has been damaged as per evidence by TFU 2 even then he was still alive....though Sidious's lighting would destroy the armor regardless if the suit was damaged or not, though I will also note Vader's suit was damaged too in that instance but ya.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.15.2013 , 09:19 AM | #3
Beni, your TFU II example helps Vader's case here. Tell me who could withstand that kind of lightning and continue fighting?

Regardless, I will point out several flaws here. First the Luke one. As we find out in Truce At Bakura, Luke learns that Palpatine's Force lightning has caused a permanent side-effect on his body. Since it's been seven years since I read the book, the exact effect escapes me, but I believe it was a permanent increased vulnerability to Force lightning. Someone correct me where I'm wrong.

But on to the actual debate at hand. Damaging Vader's suit with Force Lightning is not going to stop him. Considering that he has fought while his suit has been heavily damaged (even without his mask). He has even survived being buried alive for five days while his suit was heavily damaged and he had lost his mask.

Your TFU examples only show being stunned by Force Lightning. Tell me, what notable figures have been stunned by Force lightning? Yoda, for one. Is stunning someone with Force lightning an indication that they are weak to it? In that case, nearly every character in Star Wars is weak to Force lightning.

The only real example you provided is Darth Sidious' Lightning. Taking Vader's durability into account, I don't think Palpatine's lightning killed him. Destroyed his armor? Yes. However, what really killed him was his abandonment of the Dark Side. He has routinely relied on the Dark Side to give him the strength necessary to survive without his suit's life support. It is very clear that Vader had been redeemed, thus he no longer used the Dark Side.

Overall, Vader's suit is just as vulnerable to Force Lightning as anyone else, but it takes a huge amount of power to actually take him down, and even then it might not be enough to kill him. You could momentarily stun him, but not do so sufficiently to kill him.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
06.15.2013 , 09:25 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Beni, your TFU II example helps Vader's case here. Tell me who could withstand that kind of lightning and continue fighting?

Regardless, I will point out several flaws here. First the Luke one. As we find out in Truce At Bakura, Luke learns that Palpatine's Force lightning has caused a permanent side-effect on his body. Since it's been seven years since I read the book, the exact effect escapes me, but I believe it was a permanent increased vulnerability to Force lightning. Someone correct me where I'm wrong.

But on to the actual debate at hand. Damaging Vader's suit with Force Lightning is not going to stop him. Considering that he has fought while his suit has been heavily damaged (even without his mask). He has even survived being buried alive for five days while his suit was heavily damaged and he had lost his mask.

Your TFU examples only show being stunned by Force Lightning. Tell me, what notable figures have been stunned by Force lightning? Yoda, for one. Is stunning someone with Force lightning an indication that they are weak to it? In that case, nearly every character in Star Wars is weak to Force lightning.

The only real example you provided is Darth Sidious' Lightning. Taking Vader's durability into account, I don't think Palpatine's lightning killed him. Destroyed his armor? Yes. However, what really killed him was his abandonment of the Dark Side. He has routinely relied on the Dark Side to give him the strength necessary to survive without his suit's life support. It is very clear that Vader had been redeemed, thus he no longer used the Dark Side.

Overall, Vader's suit is just as vulnerable to Force Lightning as anyone else, but it takes a huge amount of power to actually take him down, and even then it might not be enough to kill him. You could momentarily stun him, but not do so sufficiently to kill him.
Oh right...I keep forgetting about Vader just giving up on his hate and the darkside, which kept him alive through most of his **** lol abit like Sion. Though were speaking of his armor here, and ya Sidious did effectively destroy it.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.15.2013 , 09:27 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Oh right...I keep forgetting about Vader just giving up on his hate and the darkside, which kept him alive through most of his **** lol abit like Sion. Though were speaking of his armor here, and ya Sidious did effectively destroy it.
Yeah, Sidious did destroy the armor, but it is Darth flippin' Sidious.

Considering that Vader willed himself back from the dead? Very much like Sion.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 09:52 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Overall, Vader's suit is just as vulnerable to Force Lightning as anyone else, but it takes a huge amount of power to actually take him down, and even then it might not be enough to kill him. You could momentarily stun him, but not do so sufficiently to kill him.
I would disagree here Force lightning has a more adverse effect on Vader's suit than on a human person. In the same way that a lightning strike would damage a robot, more than a human. Mainly because humans are not made of conducting material, or possessing parts that can short circuit etc.

Case in point: after being subject to continual blasts of lightining from Darth Sidious, Luke Skywalker recovered almost instantly, able to carry his father (who I assume weighs a tonne) to the hangar. Whereas Vader, well he's entirely out of it. Did Vader recieve a higher voltage? I would not say so. Now yes you could see his bones and not Skywalkers, suggesting he did. But this is the way I see it: Sidious at that point was emitting a higher voltage, but less of it impacted. Therefore the few sparks that did were powerful enough to light up his skeleton, but because they were just sparks, collectively it was not as strong as the sustained, though weaker blasts, that Luke recieved.

Yet Luke comes better off.

EDIT: I'd just add to that that a human person would have a far faster rate of recovery than Vader. Even if it had been a sustained stream they'd still be more able to fight back, while Vader would just stagger about.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 09:53 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Beni, your TFU II example helps Vader's case here. Tell me who could withstand that kind of lightning and continue fighting?
Every other above average Force user?

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
06.15.2013 , 09:53 AM | #8
electronics vs lightning? Lightning wins anyday of the week and twice on sunday.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy
Finished: Trooper, Agent, Knight, Inquizitor

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 10:17 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Actually Vader did legit throw the fight against Galen, its pretty much implied that he didn't want to kill him in the novel. But anyway as to the Lighting thing, he is vulnerable to it yes however actually, Sidious when he was picked up if you notice the lighting going directly back and into Vader. It wasn't until we see him near the edge, that the lighting is all over the place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...3s5xj8I#t=198s
I see what your saying here, but I think its just the camera shot. In that angle while it only seems to be hitting Vader, we can't actually see Sidious' hands so it could be going all other the place. And I can't see Sidious' lightning bending to hit Vader, at least it hasn't been established in lore that that is possible.
Quote:
Now to Galen's lighting, yes it did momentarily bring him down but he didn't suffer any severe damage from it. If you notice, he just gets right back up as if nothing had really happened. During the duel at best all Galen's lighting did was serve as a distraction, up until near the end he kept a constant stream of it at Vader bringing him down, even then that was after the fact that Galen was disarmed and at Vader's mercy yet he didn't want to kill him as said.

In fact Galen actually exploited a weak point on Vader, which was caused by Juno who had one of his sabers that grazed Vader's chest panel which damaged it a little.

So really all Galen's lighting was, at best a distraction unless he kept it up but even that it only was because Vader was caught off guard and or Vader didn't want to kill him.
Well we can't say for sure how much damage it did. Though yes he did get back up, he got knocked down pretty fast. Note that I'm not saying lightning is Vader's kryponite. Obviously the fact remains that Vader is a tank and can recover even from lightning. What I'm saying is that Vader's suit is weak against lightning, no matter how you twist the examples. Its just a logical fact. I'm arguing that Vader's suit is more vulnerable to lightning that a human person.

Though it should be noted, Force lightning at least IMO was the main reason Vader lost that first fight against Marek. He should have been able to absorb all those telekinetic attacks and even the explosion, as Aurbere points out he's survived a lot worst. So why was his life support knocked out? I think lightning is the only explanation. Ultimately Vader is the superior duelist and in a pure lightsaber duel would win, as evident on Kamino, but as soon as Galen gets out the lightning things turn sour.

Now you say Vader threw the Kamino fight, and while I would agree he didn't want to kill Marek, he did want to defeat him. He wanted to defeat him and force him into submission, and then kill him if he refused. And it nearly worked, he subdued Marek and could have killed him then and there. But lightning through a spanner in the works, it was not expected, and for that reason I think Vader was well and truly subdued by that single blast. Not subdued enough to not be capable of escaping, but not strong enough to keep fighting.

That's another thing, when lightning hits Vader, the damage it does to his suit is a lot more permanent that when hitting a person. Yes Luke Skywalker received long term damage, but it didn't seem to hamper his abilities. In fact you'll notice that whenever a biological Force user is hit by lightning, they get back up and start fighting again. Or at least are capable of doing so after the battle has ended. However with Vader its more permanently, the damage it does to his suit is irreparable and takes him out of the fight, permanently. Not always of course, but it has the potential to.


Quote:
Now I know this isn't Force Lighting, however still it is a point.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...cture__14_.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4...cture__15_.jpg

He survives an Electronet thrown on him, actually breaking out of it. (However if I am remember right this takes place before Vader improves his suit...but meh still.)
I'd say its very different from Force lightning. Mainly because its not a focused projectile, and likely no were near as powerful. In that sense his insulation would be sufficient enough to resist it, and because of that it would have no effect.
Quote:
So at best, Lighting just serves as a distraction unless it is kept up. Vader has only succumbed to Lighting it seems, only when he has been damaged as per evidence by TFU 2 even then he was still alive....though Sidious's lighting would destroy the armor regardless if the suit was damaged or not, though I will also note Vader's suit was damaged too in that instance but ya.
Note I'm not trying to apply this to a battle scenario, different situations will lead to different outcomes. But the fact remains that Vader is by no means immune, and it has more of an effect on his suit than it would on a person. Its also a lot more permanent, and because he relies on that suit alive, a lot more effective.

However I'd say more than a distraction. I mean let's take that example when Marek blasts him on Kamino before escaping. It was just a blast, if Marek had kept it up for a little longer, I think Vader would be out of it. And longer than that? Dead. If this however had been a above average Jedi, they would have recovered far quicker, and would likely respond with a Force push. Vader on the other hand would be powerless to do anything but stagger about.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.15.2013 , 10:21 AM | #10
Really, unless there is a way in which you can dispute 1, 2 or 3 you cannot dispute that Vader's suit is vulnerable to lightning, and more vulnerable than a normal biological. Taking different interpretations from the examples is all well and good, but we could debate forever what exactly happened in those scenarios, whether exceptional circumstance were involved etc. but ultimately logic dictates that my argument is true. I'm just saying this because I don't want any argument based on this to be shot down in future debates for no real reason.