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The Republic - Not quite as nice a group as you'd think!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
The Republic - Not quite as nice a group as you'd think!

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.26.2013 , 11:06 AM | #11
I think what we can draw from this is that both sides, Republic and Empire, Jedi and Sith, are flawed. However IMO the Jedi/Republic side is the most open to change, while the Sith/Empire are happy to revel in their imperfections.

I mean, when have you ever heard of the Sith doing something morally good? Even when it will actually lead to a better outcome? E.g. maintaining a strict policy of speciesism despite this being completely irrational and a waste of abundant potential.

On the other hand the Republic are prepared to do both good and bad depending on what the situation demands, but try to choose the 'right' action whenever possible. Avoiding the trap that the Sith/Empire has let itself fall into, for the lack of a better word: stupidity.

Either way I think that the decision to commit mass genocide was the wrong decision - both from a practical and moral perspective. However hunting down every remaining Sith would be justifiable. Though making them see through your own eyes would have been the best possible outcome.

zzoorrzz's Avatar


zzoorrzz
05.26.2013 , 12:48 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

I mean, when have you ever heard of the Sith doing something morally good? Even when it will actually lead to a better outcome? E.g. maintaining a strict policy of speciesism despite this being completely irrational and a waste of abundant potential.
How exactly do you know it's irrational? I believe we don't have enough background information in the game to say that. It's very well possible that Sith have some scientific-dark side based research implying that letting some lesser species into certain positions would weaken Empire's structure of power. I'm not saying that's the case, but saying it's irrational is nothing more than guessing as well.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.26.2013 , 01:12 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Neither the Sith nor the Jedi are right really. The Jedi let the Force use them as a tool and so act blindly and the Sith fool themselves into thinking they have control when they do not.

I think Kreia had the right idea, drawing from both sides of the coin rather than adhering to a single idea and most importantly not letting the Force control your actions or your destiny.
It is stated by multiple sources that the Jedi Order has the most correct view of the Force.
Added Chapter 59 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.26.2013 , 01:24 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
It is stated by multiple sources that the Jedi Order has the most correct view of the Force.
Well whoever wrote those sources hasn't played Knights of the Old Republic II!

But on a serious note, I suppose it depends on what said sources as defining as the Jedi Order's view. The Living Force? The Unifying Force? Nor are these beliefs unique only to the Jedi, Sidious for one believed in the Unifying Force.

But if its concerning the various codes, I'm not sure what grounds there are for such claims and ultimately its just a morality code. They define how the Force should be used, not what the Force is. The nature of the Force can remain the same whether you follow the Sith Code or the Jedi Code. Which one is correct is entirely subjective.

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Aurbere
05.26.2013 , 01:35 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well whoever wrote those sources hasn't played Knights of the Old Republic II!

But on a serious note, I suppose it depends on what said sources as defining as the Jedi Order's view. The Living Force? The Unifying Force? Nor are these beliefs unique only to the Jedi, Sidious for one believed in the Unifying Force.

But if its concerning the various codes, I'm not sure what grounds there are for such claims and ultimately its just a morality code. They define how the Force should be used, not what the Force is. The nature of the Force can remain the same whether you follow the Sith Code or the Jedi Code. Which one is correct is entirely subjective.
The Living Force. Considering that the Unifying Force theory was discredited. I believe Yoda also disagreed with the 'Unifying Force" theory.

Regardless, everyone has a different view of the Force.
Added Chapter 59 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

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Bytemite
05.26.2013 , 01:39 PM | #16
Knights of the Old Republic 2 introduced some new and interesting fresh takes on the force, light side, dark side, and neutral.

But that's not to say the views in Kotor 2, Unifying force, or all light side (living force), or all dark side is the best possible option. I also remember hearing about the "light side is the true force" idea, I think maybe even George is the one who said that, and it might even be accurate. On an individual level light side is the most life affirming path to take, and also probably good on a societal level. It also appears that was how the force was originally created to be, and that the dark side became a corruption of that.

At the same time, some of the storyline that introduced Abeloth suggested that if the galaxy became wholly light side that would ALSO be very bad. And I'm not sure if that means on an individual level, or in the sense of the environment. But I can actually kinda understand where that might be coming from. If the light side is wholly calm, without self-interest, then an entirely light side galaxy could end up being kind of lethargic. Full of creative potential, but without the incentive of destruction to use it. Comforting and safe but without true growth in personality and spirit that comes from overcoming obstacles and facing mortality.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.26.2013 , 01:55 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The Living Force. Considering that the Unifying Force theory was discredited. I believe Yoda also disagreed with the 'Unifying Force" theory.

Regardless, everyone has a different view of the Force.
Personally, I agree with the philosophy of the Unifying Force. I don't think there's any distinction between the light and the dark, its how you use it that brings about these distinctions. Else we wouldn't have unusual manifestations of the Force such as the Allyan magic, which seems to transcend both.

I think the notion of the Ones is a good demonstration of this. Yes there is the Daughter and the Son whom seem to be manifestations of light and dark respectively. But we've also got the Father, who is neither and supports each side equally. Intially however, the Daughter and the Son were 'neutral'. Until the Son drank from the Font of Power and the Daughter bathed in the Pool of Knowledge. It was what they chose to do with their power that made then light and dark. Just as a lightsider chooses to give themselves up to serenity and the darksider chooses to give in to their passions.

In fact, the Living Force is fairly illogical. When a baby (with affinity in the Force) is born are they light or dark? The Living Force would suggest they are one or the other. And what about those without enough affinity to wield the Force, are they also categorised? I would say no, one is only categorized when one begins to wield the Force. The person defines the distinction. The Force itself is entirely neutral, it has to be.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.26.2013 , 02:17 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Personally, I agree with the philosophy of the Unifying Force. I don't think there's any distinction between the light and the dark, its how you use it that brings about these distinctions. Else we wouldn't have unusual manifestations of the Force such as the Allyan magic, which seems to transcend both.

I think the notion of the Ones is a good demonstration of this. Yes there is the Daughter and the Son whom seem to be manifestations of light and dark respectively. But we've also got the Father, who is neither and supports each side equally. Intially however, the Daughter and the Son were 'neutral'. Until the Son drank from the Font of Power and the Daughter bathed in the Pool of Knowledge. It was what they chose to do with their power that made then light and dark. Just as a lightsider chooses to give themselves up to serenity and the darksider chooses to give in to their passions.

In fact, the Living Force is fairly illogical. When a baby (with affinity in the Force) is born are they light or dark? The Living Force would suggest they are one or the other. And what about those without enough affinity to wield the Force, are they also categorised? I would say no, one is only categorized when one begins to wield the Force. The person defines the distinction. The Force itself is entirely neutral, it has to be.
I won't begin to call myself an expert on the Force, but I don't agree. Nor do I disagree. I can't say for sure. Is there some plausibility for the Force being neutral? Yes. But considering that this theory was disregarded by Luke Skywalker (pretty much the pinnacle of knowledge in-universe), I would disagree.

I'm not going to say definitively which view is correct. Considering that sources indicate that the Jedi's view of the Force is most correct, and the majority of Jedi adhere to the Living Force, I wouldn't be surprised if the Living Force was the most correct view.

Again, I will not say which view is correct or not. And neither should you unless you have a definitive (G-canon) source to back it up. We can make assumptions based on what we see, but in this case, that's what they are- assumptions. The Force is more mysterious than a person's abilities or something of that ilk.

Edit: Technically, George Lucas has said that The Force is light side and dark side. Obviously pointing to the Living Force theory. And I haven't seen this statement to be refuted. w/e...
Added Chapter 59 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.26.2013 , 02:36 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I won't begin to call myself an expert on the Force, but I don't agree. Nor do I disagree. I can't say for sure. Is there some plausibility for the Force being neutral? Yes. But considering that this theory was disregarded by Luke Skywalker (pretty much the pinnacle of knowledge in-universe), I would disagree.

I'm not going to say definitively which view is correct. Considering that sources indicate that the Jedi's view of the Force is most correct, and the majority of Jedi adhere to the Living Force, I wouldn't be surprised if the Living Force was the most correct view.

Again, I will not say which view is correct or not. And neither should you unless you have a definitive (G-canon) source to back it up. We can make assumptions based on what we see, but in this case, that's what they are- assumptions. The Force is more mysterious than a person's abilities or something of that ilk.
I wouldn't say Luke is the pinnacle of knowledge of the Force by any means. He is powerful yes but that does not make him exceptionally knowledgeable. He has not had 900 years to study the Force nor has he truly experienced every aspect of it (a brief exposure to the dark side does not really suffice) and I would not rank him as the most knowledgeable in that respect.

I'd also be curious to here what exactly he says regarding the Force as such a subject is open to interpretation and even the distinction between Unifying and Living are not clear.

Indeed I'm not actually rejecting the Living Force altogether and I think its equally impossible to reject that Unfiying Force as there is such a thing as destiny, but the Force does also permeate all life.

However I do not believe that the Force is divided into light and dark, to me this illogical. I'm not rejecting the existence of the light side and the dark side, but I believe that is merely another manifestion of the Force defined by the manner in which the user chooses to wield it. The Force itself remains detached from that, after all a darksider draws on the same energy as a lightsider, just in different ways.

I don't think the Force is more attuned to the light or the dark either. The Ones seem to clearly demonstrate this is not the case. And don't hold your breath on that G-Canon statement, its never going to happen. The Force is mysterious I expect it will remain so forever, we just have to develop our own 'beliefs' like everybody else.

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Beniboybling
05.26.2013 , 02:41 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Edit: Technically, George Lucas has said that The Force is light side and dark side. Obviously pointing to the Living Force theory. And I haven't seen this statement to be refuted. w/e...
Well yes and no. No because this doesn't actually directly refute what I saying, or a believer of the Unifying Force would say. There is light and dark, but that's defined by the wielder. I don't think the Force is split into two parts so to speak.

And George has said a lot of things, I think he said something about the dark side being a cancer or something but the Mortis arc TCW (which he is heavily involved in) would suggest that's not quite the case and that a balance is needed. I think with anything regarding that subject, we have to turn our attention to those episodes as the most reliable source.

But again, I don't think this discussion can be reduced to statements and evidence. I think the universe itself with its different beliefs about the Force is encouraging you not to rely on that, and make your own decision as people in-universe would have done.