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The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 08: Quinlan Vos vs. Savage Opress

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 08: Quinlan Vos vs. Savage Opress

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
05.25.2013 , 05:03 PM | #11
Though should note, I think Vos would really just need to worry about Savage's strength not so much skill. As Vos has taken and beat Sora Bulq a Jedi Weapon Master who had dueled Windu and the fight only ended with the latter used a Force Push, and also beating K'Kruhk who survived encounters with Ventress and Grevious. (Though he didn't kill the latter).

So this really comes down to if Vos can withstand the vicious strength blows that Savage can deal, which considering Vos is rather quick and agile I can see him doing just that. Though it should be noted, Vos has kinda already fought opponents who were large and strong, K'Kruhk who was a Whiphid and they could be 2.5 meters(8 feet) and weigh in at 400 pounds.

Though Savage being fueled by Nightsister magic probably changes that, but just showing Vos has taken on big and strong opponents before.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.25.2013 , 05:26 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Though should note, I think Vos would really just need to worry about Savage's strength not so much skill. As Vos has taken and beat Sora Bulq a Jedi Weapon Master who had dueled Windu and the fight only ended with the latter used a Force Push, and also beating K'Kruhk who survived encounters with Ventress and Grevious. (Though he didn't kill the latter).

So this really comes down to if Vos can withstand the vicious strength blows that Savage can deal, which considering Vos is rather quick and agile I can see him doing just that. Though it should be noted, Vos has kinda already fought opponents who were large and strong, K'Kruhk who was a Whiphid and they could be 2.5 meters(8 feet) and weigh in at 400 pounds.

Though Savage being fueled by Nightsister magic probably changes that, but just showing Vos has taken on big and strong opponents before.
Concerning Bulq vs Vos, I wouldn't say so. According to Wookieepedia Bulq actually easily defeated Vos but in a moment of clarity Vos mastered his inner darkness, spun around and killed Bulq who was about to deal a killing blow. Really Bulq was the superior duelist but at the least the duel was inconclusive

And K'Khruhk may be big and heavy, but Opress himself was 2.18 metres and was himself 330 pounds. Add Nighsister magic to that and he's at least twice as strong if not more. Let's not forget that Opress is quick and agile too. So the chances that Vos could evade some if any of his attacks are slim. Remembering that well before he reached the pinnacle of his skills even Dooku was unable to evade every blow from Savage. Given that Savage is now all the more skilled and Vos all the less skilled that Dooku, I'd say its a slim chance.

Finally, Vos wields both Ataru and Vaapad. Both highly aggressive forms but entirely lacking in any real form of defense whatsoever. Opress with his brute strength will be pushing a defensive Vos will therefore find difficult to block, and even if he does push the defensive, Opress' very wielding of a saberstaff gives him a considerable defensive edge. And he has already shown himself able to deflect blaster fire from multiple opponents at close range and from all sides, and managed to defend against Sidious' attacks for a short amount of time, implying a strong defense.

I think in a duel Vos will inevitably be disarmed and it will go down hill for Vos from there.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
05.25.2013 , 05:35 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Concerning Bulq vs Vos, I wouldn't say so. According to Wookieepedia Bulq actually easily defeated Vos but in a moment of clarity Vos mastered his inner darkness, spun around and killed Bulq who was about to deal a killing blow. Really Bulq was the superior duelist but at the least the duel was inconclusive

And K'Khruhk may be big and heavy, but Opress himself was 2.18 metres and was himself 330 pounds. Add Nighsister magic to that and he's at least twice as strong if not more. Let's not forget that Opress is quick and agile too. So the chances that Vos could evade some if any of his attacks are slim. Remembering that well before he reached the pinnacle of his skills even Dooku was unable to evade every blow from Savage. Given that Savage is now all the more skilled and Vos all the less skilled that Dooku, I'd say its a slim chance.

Finally, Vos wields both Ataru and Vaapad. Both highly aggressive forms but entirely lacking in any real form of defense whatsoever. Opress with his brute strength will be pushing a defensive Vos will therefore find difficult to block, and even if he does push the defensive, Opress' very wielding of a saberstaff gives him a considerable defensive edge. And he has already shown himself able to deflect blaster fire from multiple opponents at close range and from all sides, and managed to defend against Sidious' attacks for a short amount of time, implying a strong defense.

I think in a duel Vos will inevitably be disarmed and it will go down hill for Vos from there.
Hmm...actually double checking, K'Khruhk would weigh in at 881 pounds I missed the 400 kilos part bit and looking that up 400 kilos is 881 pounds. Savage was 2.18 meters after the transformation, before he was the standard Zabrak height of 1.8 meters.

Though yes Savage does wield his saber staff, it too is not without its flaws. It is an easy target with the hilt to be destroyed, and it is limited with movements hence how Obi-Wan as a Padawan was able to destroy Maul's saber during their first duel. While Maul isn't amped by Nightsister magic and is stronger then Maul, the saberstaff still has the weakness.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.25.2013 , 05:36 PM | #14
We should remember the natural traits of Vaapad. It acts as an amp, drawing on the darkness of the foe and the user to form a superconducting loop. Basically giving Quinlan Vos an amp for his skills.

But, like I note in the OP, Vos has only a basic knowledge of the form. However, he does have a mastery over the mental and spiritual aspects of the form.

Just something to consider.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

YoshiRaphElan's Avatar


YoshiRaphElan
05.25.2013 , 08:29 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
We should remember the natural traits of Vaapad. It acts as an amp, drawing on the darkness of the foe and the user to form a superconducting loop. Basically giving Quinlan Vos an amp for his skills.
This. Given the RAGE with which Savage fights, Quinlan will just suck it up, use it to get stronger, and then Savage gets madder, and Quinlan sucks even more up, and Savage gets madder...endless cycle of "Quinlan-gets-stronger." Now, Savage's skills are not inconsiderable, but even though he was able to hold his own against Ventress, Dooku, Adi, and Anakin and Obi-Wan, not to mention Darth Sidious, he was unable to beat any of them, except for Adi Gallia. He lasted for quite some time against Sidious, but once Maul was taken out of the picture, Sidious toyed with Savage and took him out in short order. I think if Quinlan could survive long enough to get into the flow of Vaapad, then Savage would die in a rather short time. However, Savage whoops Quinlan across the room before Quinlan even has a chance to draw his lightsaber, maybe Savage could skewer Quinlan on his horns (like he did Adi Gallia), and then finish him off. However, Quinlan could take advantage of the same weakness Obi-Wan and Adi Gallia did. If he repeatedly kicks him in the leg, he'd give out, and given Quinlan's speed and the skill with which he can use Vaapad, it's quite a possibility.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
05.26.2013 , 06:16 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[*]With a single lightsaber strike Savage managed to send Dooku flying across the room, knocking his lightsaber out of his hand and momentarily stunning him.

True, but you also have Dooku, who is much older and physically weaker than Savage getting up and fighting extremely well afterward. Also, Dooku decimates Opress with lighting. Vos learned his skill from one of the masters of lighting- Dooku himself.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[*]In a similar manner, he knocked both Kenobi and Anakin off their feet after charging at them, sending them flying against the adjacent wall.

He was in a rage, which fulled him with the darkside. Vos's vaapad will take advantage of this, and use it against him. We also should take into account how close to the darkside Vos is. If he snapped he would be fueled with just as much ferocity as Opress was. That would not be good for Opress. Also, in the battle of Ventress and Obi-wan vs. Opress and Maul, we see Ventress using martial arts and punches on Opress. Vos is a master of ataru and will also be able to use his speed in such a manner.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.26.2013 , 07:04 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
True, but you also have Dooku, who is much older and physically weaker than Savage getting up and fighting extremely well afterward. Also, Dooku decimates Opress with lighting. Vos learned his skill from one of the masters of lighting- Dooku himself. [/COLOR]
I can only find evidence of Vos using lightning for torture, and that was before he was trained by Dooku and as a Jedi... that's kinda confusing. Can we get clarification that? However he was never seemed to use it in battle.
Quote:
He was in a rage, which fulled him with the darkside. Vos's vaapad will take advantage of this, and use it against him. We also should take into account how close to the darkside Vos is. If he snapped he would be fueled with just as much ferocity as Opress was. That would not be good for Opress. Also, in the battle of Ventress and Obi-wan vs. Opress and Maul, we see Ventress using martial arts and punches on Opress. Vos is a master of ataru and will also be able to use his speed in such a manner.
Vos may wield Vaapad, but he remains a Jedi and seems only to use it as a last resort. Given that it's unlikely he will use it instantaneously giving Opress ample opportunity to disarm Vos and dispatch him. Without his lightsaber Vos' skill with Vaapad will be rendered useless.

And yes Ventress used martial arts against Opress but to what effect? Very little. Opress was relatively unphased by the attack and Ventress was only delaying the inevitable (also note that Opress quickly disarmed Ventress using his strength) and then we have this. After disarming a Jedi Master said master unleashes a martial arts attack, it has no effect.

In fact I'd go as far to say that Vos' martial abilities will act as a disadvantage. In a similar way to Adi Vos' unsuccessful attacks will phase him and likely create an opening that Opress can exploit.

I think shock factor will be Savage' biggest advantage here. Vos will be initially overwhelmed by Savage's powerful assault. And I am confident that Savage can generate a similar level of momentum and power that he displays when fighting Anakin and Kenobi. He is practically pumped on rage 24/7 evident from the way in which he destroys a squad of elite clone troopers and 2 Jedi in less than 50 seconds. Any attempt from Vos to throw Savage off with a martial attack will fail and only allow Savage to push the offensive harder. Vos will be quickly disarmed and have to rely solely on martial arts which will prove useless, if Savage can keep him from his weapon he'll inevitably be dispatched.

But in the event that Vos does manage to employ Vaapad Savage can fall back on his Force powers in which he possessed immense strength and affinity. A powerful Force push chained into his attack will be enough to send Vos flying and possible even disarm him. But at the least it will allow Savage to push the offensive and overwhelm his weak defenses. Also remembering that Savage's own excellent defense will prove proficient against any attack that Vos can dish out.

I think we should also consider the nature of Form VII. Juyo is designed to dish out attacks but it cannot take it. Vaapad solves this problem, allowing the user to absorb the attack in superconducting loop. However this only account for lightsaber attacks and only highly skilled practitioners could absorb Force based attacks. Yes Savage wields a lightsaber but he will not defeat Vos through breaking through his defenses and landing a blow. He will defeat Vos simply by breaking him. Again the analogy of defending against a moving truck with a sword. It may seem exaggerated and farfetched but this is essentially the best way to describe it. Vaapad may allow Vos to effortless block, parry etc. but not absorb the raw force that Savage will release witch will simply batter Vos away. A connecting blow is enough to send Vos flying. I'm not saying Vos will be WTFpwned but that his skills with a lightsaber are not designed to counter Savage's kind of attack. Which is in fact quite unique.

P.S. Also note that despite his age Count Dooku was in excellent physical health, I don't think he can really be referred to as weak nor do I think Vos is strong enough to resist such a blow without at least getting knocked down.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.26.2013 , 07:18 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by YoshiRaphElan View Post
However, Quinlan could take advantage of the same weakness Obi-Wan and Adi Gallia did. If he repeatedly kicks him in the leg, he'd give out, and given Quinlan's speed and the skill with which he can use Vaapad, it's quite a possibility.
I wouldn't really call it a weakness as such. I don't want to use the word plot device but we should consider that Savage's muscles and bone are far far more durable than most biologicals. I suppose this is evident from the fact that is took 5 kicks for Savage's leg to give way. Oh and that's another thing, I forgot to mention one of his most impressive feats!

Despite having a broken leg and a severed arm he still managed to escape Florrum despite being chased by pirates and half carrying his brother. In fact I'd question whether Kenobi managed to break it at all, or at least ascribe Opress excellent vitality and fortitude. Given the fact he was perfectly capable of exertive movement and did not seem in any pain whatoever moments after suffering grievous injuries. Just look here.

If you couldn't see it, you wouldn't even know that his arm was severed. I mean, do we remember what happened when Anakin lost his arm? He was rendered unconscious.

So even if Vos managed to 'break' his leg (if that's even what happened) Savage would only be momentarily phased and could likely use his rage to carry on fighting. Even if he lost an arm he wouldn't be out of it.

In fact I'm confident that Savage could sustain any cuts or blows that Vos manages to land on Opress, not only is his armour extremely durable, but Savage possess excellent fortitude as well. This will only add to the shock factor as Vos will expect such attacks to cripple him or at least provide an opposing for a finishing blow, and how many times have we seen the 'killed just as he's about to kill the other guy' trope? It could happen.

P.S. As an addition, even when he was stabbed in the chest with two blades and chucked of a ledge he managed to stay alive long enough to speak with his brother. Impressive. Most impressive.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
05.26.2013 , 07:30 AM | #19
I have a question, where specifically on Devaron. The temple? A jungle? There are many places that could be used when we are simply saying a planet.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
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Canino's Avatar


Canino
05.26.2013 , 07:49 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I can only find evidence of Vos using lightning for torture, and that was before he was trained by Dooku and as a Jedi... that's kinda confusing. Can we get clarification that? However he was never seemed to use it in battle.Vos may wield Vaapad, but he remains a Jedi and seems only to use it as a last resort. Given that it's unlikely he will use it instantaneously giving Opress ample opportunity to disarm Vos and dispatch him. Without his lightsaber Vos' skill with Vaapad will be rendered useless.

And yes Ventress used martial arts against Opress but to what effect? Very little. Opress was relatively unphased by the attack and Ventress was only delaying the inevitable (also note that Opress quickly disarmed Ventress using his strength) and then we have this. After disarming a Jedi Master said master unleashes a martial arts attack, it has no effect.

In fact I'd go as far to say that Vos' martial abilities will act as a disadvantage. In a similar way to Adi Vos' unsuccessful attacks will phase him and likely create an opening that Opress can exploit.

I think shock factor will be Savage' biggest advantage here. Vos will be initially overwhelmed by Savage's powerful assault. And I am confident that Savage can generate a similar level of momentum and power that he displays when fighting Anakin and Kenobi. He is practically pumped on rage 24/7 evident from the way in which he destroys a squad of elite clone troopers and 2 Jedi in less than 50 seconds. Any attempt from Vos to throw Savage off with a martial attack will fail and only allow Savage to push the offensive harder. Vos will be quickly disarmed and have to rely solely on martial arts which will prove useless, if Savage can keep him from his weapon he'll inevitably be dispatched.

But in the event that Vos does manage to employ Vaapad Savage can fall back on his Force powers in which he possessed immense strength and affinity. A powerful Force push chained into his attack will be enough to send Vos flying and possible even disarm him. But at the least it will allow Savage to push the offensive and overwhelm his weak defenses. Also remembering that Savage's own excellent defense will prove proficient against any attack that Vos can dish out.

I think we should also consider the nature of Form VII. Juyo is designed to dish out attacks but it cannot take it. Vaapad solves this problem, allowing the user to absorb the attack in superconducting loop. However this only account for lightsaber attacks and only highly skilled practitioners could absorb Force based attacks. Yes Savage wields a lightsaber but he will not defeat Vos through breaking through his defenses and landing a blow. He will defeat Vos simply by breaking him. Again the analogy of defending against a moving truck with a sword. It may seem exaggerated and farfetched but this is essentially the best way to describe it. Vaapad may allow Vos to effortless block, parry etc. but not absorb the raw force that Savage will release witch will simply batter Vos away. A connecting blow is enough to send Vos flying. I'm not saying Vos will be WTFpwned but that his skills with a lightsaber are not designed to counter Savage's kind of attack. Which is in fact quite unique.

P.S. Also note that despite his age Count Dooku was in excellent physical health, I don't think he can really be referred to as weak nor do I think Vos is strong enough to resist such a blow without at least getting knocked down.
He would get knocked down, but his physicality would allow him to get up far faster. This, coupled with his lighting would put a damper on Savage. His lighting is a question, but I'm confident he would use it. He used it in torture against his enemy, why wouldn't he use it against an active enemy?

The topic a Vaapad is a debate though. In his spare with Windu, he found himself using Vaapad subconsciously. He was trained in it by the co-creator during his time a double agent. Vos also would get into the heat of battle, and this is what truly powers Vaapad. He could couple his Vaapad with his mastery of ataru, his elements of Makashi, and a defense of Shien.

And you are wrong with Dooku not teaching him, or are at least according to Wookie.
Quote:
While working undercover, Dooku personally trained Quinlan Vos in the Dark Side and in a variety of Dark Side Force powers including Force-lightning, force choke, telekinesis, and to tame animals and bend them to his will, most notably a krayt dragon.
He was powerful in the Force, and was personally taught be Dooku. He could also hide his presence as seen in the assassination of Senator Viento and he was very adept in Force Cloak. He could strike from the shadows at Opress and could effectively hide his presence from him.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
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