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So much for full custization

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
So much for full custization

Anzel's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 10:41 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by zzoorrzz View Post
Why do things simple when you can do them complicated? That's their philosophy.
Exactly. Let's take the tiniest most trivial feature and figure out how to make our paying subscribers jump through hoops of fire and buy more and more and more STUPID Cartel Packs.

This isn't a expansion folks. It's not a new play style or class or whathaveyou. Put a color picker in the kiosk... which should be free to subscribers... and be done with it.

90 days from now they'll be in their war room over at EA all yelling and pointing fingers at each other trying to figure out why nobody plays this garbage anymore.
ANZEL - Master Bounty Hunter - Corbantis Galaxy - 06/23/2003
ANZEL - Bounty Hunter / Mercenary - The Corbantis Legacy - 12/13/2011
ANZEL - SWG EMU - CORE 1 Developer - 06/2006

islander's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 10:42 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Silko View Post
So Bioware has once again half assed the already half assed system.
Here's your TL;DR version.

and yes, they did.
Gėllies Erimosi, Imperial Deadeye
<Hex> Prophecy of the Five

Lostpenguins's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 10:52 AM | #13
I could care less about whether the dyes are from CM or crafted. What bothers me is their system. Make 2 slots: primary and secondary. None of this - dyes with a primary and secondary color. That's just terrible.

That way, if I like the black as primary and get bored of the red as secondary, I can just switch the secondary without having to look for a whole new duo-coloring dye that was black as primary and the color I want as secondary.

Much like the enchanting system (aka the augmentation system), it's another terrible design.

Andryah's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 10:53 AM | #14
Not sure where the OP ever got the idea we would have "full customization". I'd like to see the link to the statement that supports that conflated perception.

Sounds like OP is just mad about the way dyes are being implemented, even though OP is absent some facts and is using assumption as foundation for complaint. As far as I can tell, no real $$ will be required to aquire dyes with one exception: dyes that are CE vendor only.. you must purchase the CE.

Before tomorrow.. we have no ability to dye armor. After tomorrow, we have the ability to dye armor. Over time.. we will have more dye colors and I am sure more ability to dye armor.

I really don't see the issue. I see the QQ, but I don't see the issue. All I see is.. "wah!! they did not design it to my specifications!! wah!!" Seriously.. are you actually that self-entitled OP?
"The internet has enabled so much and empowered so many. But it can also be a place where the basic rules of decency are suspended and pettiness and negativity thrive,” - Tim Cook, Apple CEO

Slurmez's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 11:00 AM | #15
Whats hilarious is how badly they ruined the customisation in this game which was at its best pre launch, they took out everything being modable for no good reason and removed colour match to chest just so they could hold onto it to "give back". They lift the bad things from other game and try to reinvent the good into an unusable mess.

I take it back its not hilarious, its just sad....

Malastare's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 11:22 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Silko View Post
Then you make it where more then half of the colors we can get we have to buy using real cash,
If you subscribe, you don't have to pay cash. You can buy them with your monthly CC grant.

Quote: Originally Posted by Silko View Post
Now I can't even put multiple color modules in the armor I want? Why are we doing such a half *** system? Why in the world would you not let us put say a black in the primary module slot and not let us put another color in the secondary slot?

Imagine I have a piece of armor. Now, lets add one color slot to it. Now... let's add a paltry 8 possible colors for it. Now, to properly texture that armor, I need to produce 8 textures which incorporate those 8 colors. But wait, we want multiple colors, so lets add another slot with the same 8 colors. Now I need to produce 64 textures to cover all of the possible combinations. And I need to produce them for every base equipment model in the game. Let's say there are 30 base equipment sets, with 7 pieces each.... that's 210 base models. Let's drop that to an even 200. Most of the bracers are the same, anyway.

So now, we need to produce 200 x 64 textures to cover all the possible armor with all the possible combinations. That's a daunting 12,800 textures. A rough job, but you only do it once, so...

But wait: People want more colors. They really love mauve, so we're going to add it. Unfortunately, that means we have to add all the combinations. So that's 200 [base models] x ( 8 [primary combos] + 8 [secondary combos] + 1 [mauve-mauve combo]). That's just... 3,400 new textures to make. Well... they really want mauve.

Now they want chartreuse. Okay, let's add another 3,400 textures. Wait. No, we need to have the mauve-chartreuse versions too, so its 210 x ( 9 + 9 + 1), meaning we have to create 3800 textures now.

And so it goes. Each time you add a color, the amount of work you do increases... exponentially. Meanwhile, your texture repository is ballooning and it will get harder and harder to optimize texture loading in areas where a lot of those textures are needed.

Taking the approach used by Bioware: You add one color slot. For each color option you add, you need to create just one set of model textures (ie: just 200 more textures). Sure, the users don't have as many combination options, but you have the ability to add a larger number of the most popular/desired colors. It lets you focus on just the most popular combinations, such as "black", "black-grey", "black-brown", "grey-blue" without having to waste design-time and run-time resources on hopefully unpopular combinations like "green-red", "brown-pink" or "green-orange". Even better: you can adapt to customer requests without having to pay an exponential cost every time a new color is added.

Of course, procedural textures (textures created on the fly, such as by color-replacement ie: color wheel selection) may give you more customization and avoid the ballooning-texture problem, however, the textures are going to be lower quality (due to blending/shading issues) and have lower graphical performance.

Quote: Originally Posted by Silko View Post
1) You are once again limiting customization. If one thing that is ALWAYS true in any video game, the more customization the better.

More customization at the cost of acceptable performance is not better.

Quote: Originally Posted by Silko View Post
3) If none of the common sense reasons why this is a bad idea will convince BW or those who seem to always forgive BW of their short comings, allow me to try to appeal to their wallets. So in the current system you are going to make people buy colors they want. But now that you have limited them to 1 color only for what ever armor piece they wanted to customize they will not be able to put that 2nd color they wanted to put in their armor. Thus you have cut your possible profit from these armor dyes in half.
You did your math wrong. In your proposal, you forgot the cost of actually creating the textures. The cost of doing it their way is drastically cheaper than your method, and continues to be increasingly cheaper the more colors they add in the future. Doing it their way is actually better for their wallets than following your desires.

Quote: Originally Posted by Silko View Post
Bioware, please change this. I promise you there will not be a SINGLE person who can come up with a logical reason why we should limited to just 1 color dye per armor peice.
#1 : Performance. Pre-cooked textures are easier on CPUs than dynamic textures.
#2 : Quality. Pre-cooked textures will have better anti-aliasing, better shading, and better textural details than a palette-swapped texture.
#3 : Increased room for crafting. By forcing all dyes into a single slot, the number of dye modules can be much higher. Instead of having just 8 colors creating 64 combinations, they can have 20 or 30 or 50 modules. Yes, I know only 20 are craftable now, but it is easier to grow that number with a single dye module design.
#4 : Reduced development cost. The cost of adding new modules is drastically lower and doesn't require exponential growth in texture counts.
#5 : Limited color selection. Color combinations can remain mostly-realistic. There is a reduced worry of users producing hideous armor combinations.

Lostpenguins's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 11:25 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Malastare View Post
They already can do colorings on every piece of armor (minus chestpiece) with the "match to chespiece" schema. So it's basically there. I don't see how complicated this can be when we already see it happening in game.

Lionflash's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 12:32 PM | #18
"Applying a Dye Module to an armor that already contains one will replace and destroy the existing Dye Module"

Any reason why they can't stack the armor dyes? I know nothing in terms of video game design and the issue this might cause... but if you have a piece of armor that is White (primary) and Blue (secondary)... and you add a Red (primary) and an [empty] (secondary)... turning the armor Red and Blue.

Can they not make it then that if you now add to this 'dyed armor' an [empty] (primary) and yellow(secondary)... that the armor becomes Red and Yellow?

Then they wouldn't have to worry about creating a whole bunch of dye combinations and only release (primary) and (secondary) dyes, and the only time that a color dye is destroyed/replaced is if you add a (primary) dye to a (primary) dyed armor...

..Yes, no? Maybe so?

Malastare's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 12:39 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
They already can do colorings on every piece of armor (minus chestpiece) with the "match to chespiece" schema. So it's basically there. I don't see how complicated this can be when we already see it happening in game.
Because they don't do dynamic matching or guarantee colors. Essentially, they search through the catalog for a best fit. No matter how many color module slots they add, the result will be the same: The color modules will do the same best-fit search. I have no doubt that the code to find/match the colors already existed in the engine and what they added was a UI element that let us force the selection parameters. The issue isn't how the texture is found, but in how many textures need to be available.

This is the critical part: Even with the number of existing textures, the math still holds true: If you have 8 colors with primary and secondary options, you have a minimum of 64 textures that must exist, in addition to the default appearance. You want 10 colors? Then its 100 textures at a minimum. 15 colors? Now its 225 textures at a minimum.

The difference then, in case it wasn't obvious, is that the current 'match-to-chest' is not guaranteed to find an ideal match. The catalog is still restricted, and in many cases, no close match exists. For the solution they're using, this is manageable, because their required color sets are easily enumerated, and grow linearly with the number of modules. For the 8x8-combo version, the sets might be easily defined, but each new color requires you to create texture combinations for every other color in existence, making the number of textures grow exponentially with each additional color. This matters because you can't fudge on the colors like 'match-to-chest' does. A "close-enough" match isn't good enough. If I pay CC for "lime green" I want the armor to look different than it does with the "just green" dye. If I use primary-black and secondary-red dye modules, I don't want the armor looking black and pink.

Planar's Avatar

05.13.2013 , 12:41 PM | #20

THEY CAN EXPAND on the system once it is in place, do you want to wait 3-4 more patches until they can FULLY implement it OR get some modifications now and more later??

People WHINED SO MUCH about the bugs in "Unify Color to Chest" in beta that they REMOVED it from the game for MONTHS after launch. I would rather they left it in and deal with some armor pieces just not acting right (some still don't) than have them remove it.

I mean seriously, I think BIOWARE could've given you a primary, secondary color set, 500 new hair styles, 17 new races, scalable body types, massive height modifiers and you people would complain about them not adding the ability to scale your feet, hands separately. WOW you people amaze me every freaking day at how much you DEMAND.