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The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 07: Darth Maul vs. Asajj Ventress

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 07: Darth Maul vs. Asajj Ventress

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.06.2013 , 01:45 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
EDIT: If anything TCW Maul should be weaker as he languished in insanity for what, 10 years? Not exactly honing his skills. Or are we saying the Nightsisters imbued him with magic? I'm not sure there's much evidence to support that...
That's a good point. We even see this with Old Ben Kenobi. He had been out of practice for over ten years. It is likely that Maul's lightsaber skills weakened. However, I am of the opinion that he grew more powerful, feeding on his hate. A theory of mine.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
05.06.2013 , 01:47 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I'm not sure how losing one's legs has any effect on one's abilities. He didn't learn anything new, these are just skills he didn't use before. TPM Maul and TCW Maul are effectively the same person, I'm confused as to why people think otherwise and think TPM is somehow less powerful... A fair point about Savage though.

Also note, Maul is in expert in double-blade, single blade and dual blade. He displayed as much in TCW.

EDIT: Maul didn't even have special legs when he dueled Sidious. So again I'm not sure why these abilities are invalid. Did he take some sort of drug or something?

EDIT: If anything TCW Maul should be weaker as he languished in insanity for what, 10 years? Not exactly honing his skills. Or are we saying the Nightsisters imbued him with magic? I'm not sure there's much evidence to support that...
Read the OP seriously beni, this is TPM Maul possibly in his best physical condition also Ventress has this due to using force powers during combat along with Makashi is perfect to face dual blade opponents because Makashi is more precise than dual-blade.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
05.06.2013 , 01:49 PM | #13
Ventress was a master Jar'kai specialist, an extremely proficient Makashi duellist and also incorporated elements of Ataru.

She even bested Grievous in one on one combat and he had to call upon his battle droids to continue the fight.

Now I knew the Qui-Gon Jinn fight would be brought up but 1.He WAS an equal to Windu before age started to catch up to him. 2.Maul defeated Jinn only when Maul had brought him into an enclosed space and removed much of Jinn's ability to wield Ataru. 3.Jinn was past his prime and it was relatively easy for Maul to finish off Jinn now that the fight had become a prolonged one, this is more than evident due to the fact that Jinn has to take break and meditate to regain his stamina.

Where as Ventress has faced off against multiple exceptionally powerful Jedi including facing both Skywalker and Kenobi and instead of allowing their polar opposite forms to weigh in on her, she instead broke through BOTH of their force barriers and force choked them, whilst heavily injured i might add.

She was exceptional at telekinetics, could force jump enormous distances and had a high proficiency of Force Speed.

She was also exceptionally skilled at Dun Moch including using affect mind to confuse/infuriate her opponents a lot further than most.

I also might add that Juyo's normally powerful kinetic abilities are cancelled out by the use of a saberstaff, as Kas'im has stated, a saberstaff actually lessens the ability of a powerful strong attacker because the kinetic damage can't be centred into one blade, for the saberstaff is a long weapon and it's usage is pointless if you don't attack quickly, something Ventress is highly used to fighting Jedi.
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
Republic Justice

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.06.2013 , 01:54 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
To be honest, I only considered TCW for Ventress' mentality. I never really saw Ventress mock her opponents mid-combat. Don't take my word for it because I haven't watched every episode yet.

Also, I agree regarding lightsaber forms. Sure Ventress has an athletic edge, but that's pretty small considering Maul's athleticism. Concerning Makashi's weakness to brute strength, I believe Dooku to be the exception to that (I have plenty of evidence to support that, but let's save it for Dooku's battle).

Though I would caution using Mace Windu as an example. He very clearly makes most duelists look amateur.

Also, you have used many TCW examples for Maul. But your TPM evidence is very well though out. We should also remember that during the Theed Palace duel, Maul was trying to lure Qui-Gon to an enclosed area to take advantage of Qui-Gon's weaknesses that he had observed on Tatooine (I would have to pick up the TPM novel, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened).
  1. From the comics which I have not read but am familiar with, from the few excepts I've seen Ventress plays a bunch of Jedi for fools with Dun Moch and even turns one to the dark side (I mean she must be the only Sith whose managed to do that )

  2. Dooku is a minor exception to the rule but only because of his skill, against a skilled duelist as he (e.g. Anakin Skywalker) the weakness becomes apparent. It can't really be overcome. And we also have to remember that Ventress' Makashi is unrefined compared to Dooku's.

  3. Sure Mace Windu is BAMF but given that Qui-Gon is supposedly his equal and Maul defeated Qui-Gon (and went toe-to-toe with Sidious) I'd say Maul would give him a run for his money. Something Ventress is incapable of doing.

  4. Again confused why TCW Maul has no relevance to TPM Maul when they are essentially the same guy minus some body parts. Its like saying Anakin's martial prowess pre-Mustafar is entirely irrelevant to Vader's prowess. Even worse as his injuries were far more severe.

  5. While Maul did have to push Jinn into a corner, its incredibly impressive that he managed to hold his own against two Ataru specialists (one whom was an absoulte master) a highly aggresive form designed to achieve swift and decisive victory, with a form supposedly weak in the defense dept. with relative ease.

Altogether I feel Maul is being severly underestimated and that Ventress is no match. Tenous ABC Logic here but Maul beat Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon = Windu, Dooku = Windu, Dooku floored Ventress, Maul > Ventress. Tenous I know but I'm trying to highlight how Maul is in a different league, if Ventress was truly a superior duelist then Dooku would not have beaten her so very, very easily.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.06.2013 , 02:02 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That's a good point. We even see this with Old Ben Kenobi. He had been out of practice for over ten years. It is likely that Maul's lightsaber skills weakened. However, I am of the opinion that he grew more powerful, feeding on his hate. A theory of mine.
Perhaps, but this is nowhere stated so the abilities should at least be considered. It also still stands that Maul is an exceptionally skilled single-bladed and Jar'Kai wielder. To quote Darth Plagueis:

"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." ~ Plagueis

And likely more skilled than Ventress.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.06.2013 , 02:09 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Ventress was a master Jar'kai specialist, an extremely proficient Makashi duellist and also incorporated elements of Ataru.

She even bested Grievous in one on one combat and he had to call upon his battle droids to continue the fight.
I'm aware of Ventress' capabilities, but Maul is a master Jar'Kai specialist as well. And unlike Maul's Juyo, which was trained to perfection, Ventress' Makashi was far from perfect. Unduli wasn't lying when she called it 'sloppy and unrefined' although perhaps exaggerating.

Also, defeating TCW Grievous is no mean feat, given the fact that Gungans gave him a run for his money /sigh.

Quote:
Now I knew the Qui-Gon Jinn fight would be brought up but 1.He WAS an equal to Windu before age started to catch up to him. 2.Maul defeated Jinn only when Maul had brought him into an enclosed space and removed much of Jinn's ability to wield Ataru. 3.Jinn was past his prime and it was relatively easy for Maul to finish off Jinn now that the fight had become a prolonged one, this is more than evident due to the fact that Jinn has to take break and meditate to regain his stamina.

Where as Ventress has faced off against multiple exceptionally powerful Jedi including facing both Skywalker and Kenobi and instead of allowing their polar opposite forms to weigh in on her, she instead broke through BOTH of their force barriers and force choked them, whilst heavily injured i might add.

She was exceptional at telekinetics, could force jump enormous distances and had a high proficiency of Force Speed.

She was also exceptionally skilled at Dun Moch including using affect mind to confuse/infuriate her opponents a lot further than most.

I also might add that Juyo's normally powerful kinetic abilities are cancelled out by the use of a saberstaff, as Kas'im has stated, a saberstaff actually lessens the ability of a powerful strong attacker because the kinetic damage can't be centred into one blade, for the saberstaff is a long weapon and it's usage is pointless if you don't attack quickly, something Ventress is highly used to fighting Jedi.
Interesting point about Jinn, that makes more sense. Nonetheless holding your own against an Ataru master of such a level is highly impressive, especially given the fact their were too of them. Neither did Maul seem to be struggling. On the other hand, Anakin and Obi-Wan clearly outclassed Ventress. Yes she managed to Force choke them but in a moment of desperation and anger (no doubt fuelled by her betrayal) and I doubt she would have succeeded in killing them.

And regarding her skill in telekinetics, its obviously there but in a pitched battle against a highly aggressive form and a highly durable opponent will not give her much of an advantage. Especially given that Maul can respond in kind if necessary.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.06.2013 , 02:11 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
  1. From the comics which I have not read but am familiar with, from the few excepts I've seen Ventress plays a bunch of Jedi for fools with Dun Moch and even turns one to the dark side (I mean she must be the only Sith whose managed to do that )

  2. Dooku is a minor exception to the rule but only because of his skill, against a skilled duelist as he (e.g. Anakin Skywalker) the weakness becomes apparent. It can't really be overcome. And we also have to remember that Ventress' Makashi is unrefined compared to Dooku's.

  3. Sure Mace Windu is BAMF but given that Qui-Gon is supposedly his equal and Maul defeated Qui-Gon (and went toe-to-toe with Sidious) I'd say Maul would give him a run for his money. Something Ventress is incapable of doing.

  4. Again confused why TCW Maul has no relevance to TPM Maul when they are essentially the same guy minus some body parts. Its like saying Anakin's martial prowess pre-Mustafar is entirely irrelevant to Vader's prowess. Even worse as his injuries were far more severe.

  5. While Maul did have to push Jinn into a corner, its incredibly impressive that he managed to hold his own against two Ataru specialists (one whom was an absoulte master) a highly aggresive form designed to achieve swift and decisive victory, with a form supposedly weak in the defense dept. with relative ease.

Altogether I feel Maul is being severly underestimated and that Ventress is no match. Tenous ABC Logic here but Maul beat Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon = Windu, Dooku = Windu, Dooku floored Ventress, Maul > Ventress. Tenous I know but I'm trying to highlight how Maul is in a different league, if Ventress was truly a superior duelist then Dooku would not have beaten her so very, very easily.
1. That was the mission to Ruul wasn't it? Sorry, but I don't read too many comics (usually only the ones with Plo Koon).

2. Well, actually, in TCW Dooku holds off Anakin (who was pretty much rage-mode) one-handed. It was only in Revenge of the Sith that this becomes apparent.

3. Well, yes, just pointing out that Mace is the boss.

4. Maul's pretty different in TCW. But that is mostly the single blade and Dun Moch. I personally believe that his skills remained mostly unchanged.

5. Maul's skills are very impressive. But the issue with using Qui-Gon Jinn is that he was passed his prime. While Qui-Gon Jinn was still very skilled, his age severely impacted his abilities. Not that I'm trying to argue with you because Ataru is meant for quick victories. Maul using an offensive form in such a manner is telling of his skill.

If I may, I would just like to point out a weakness in your ABC logic. Mace Windu=Jedi Master Dooku. Mace Windu > Count Dooku (Boz Pity). Dooku became more powerful as a Sith Lord, but being a Sith made him vulnerable to Vaapad. This is why Mace is only second best in the Order at the time, because he can't use Vaapad on Yoda or any other Jedi.

Regardless, the argument is sound.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.06.2013 , 02:13 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Perhaps, but this is nowhere stated so the abilities should at least be considered. It also still stands that Maul is an exceptionally skilled single-bladed and Jar'Kai wielder. To quote Darth Plagueis:

"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." ~ Plagueis

And likely more skilled than Ventress.
Well, we can only speculate on that. But Maul has shown a reasonable level of skill in Force Choke and Force Grip, as well as other telekinetic abilities. But I give Ventress the Force powers edge.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
05.06.2013 , 02:25 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
  1. Dooku is a minor exception to the rule but only because of his skill, against a skilled duelist as he (e.g. Anakin Skywalker) the weakness becomes apparent. It can't really be overcome. And we also have to remember that Ventress' Makashi is unrefined compared to Dooku's.
  1. Unrefined doesn't mean unefficient.

    Quote:
  2. Sure Mace Windu is BAMF but given that Qui-Gon is supposedly his equal and Maul defeated Qui-Gon (and went toe-to-toe with Sidious) I'd say Maul would give him a run for his money. Something Ventress is incapable of doing.
Ventress gave a run for their money on both Anakin and Obiwan both as Jedi Masters.

Quote:
  • Again confused why TCW Maul has no relevance to TPM Maul when they are essentially the same guy minus some body parts. Its like saying Anakin's martial prowess pre-Mustafar is entirely irrelevant to Vader's prowess. Even worse as his injuries were far more severe.
  • If Vader's potential was handicapped by the suit, that means Maul is handicapped by his legs.

    Quote:
  • While Maul did have to push Jinn into a corner, its incredibly impressive that he managed to hold his own against two Ataru specialists (one whom was an absoulte master) a highly aggresive form designed to achieve swift and decisive victory, with a form supposedly weak in the defense dept. with relative ease.
  • Don't get me wrong. Maul is a master of Juyo but up to a point, his powers are useless and I mean useless against someone like Dooku or Ventress,


    Quote:
    Altogether I feel Maul is being severly underestimated and that Ventress is no match. Tenous ABC Logic here but Maul beat Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon = Windu, Dooku = Windu, Dooku floored Ventress, Maul > Ventress. Tenous I know but I'm trying to highlight how Maul is in a different league, if Ventress was truly a superior duelist then Dooku would not have beaten her so very, very easily.
    Let me put it simple for you:

    If both ventress and maul were put against Dooku, Ventress would last longer.

    LadyKulvax's Avatar


    LadyKulvax
    05.06.2013 , 03:01 PM | #20
    Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
    I'm aware of Ventress' capabilities, but Maul is a master Jar'Kai specialist as well. And unlike Maul's Juyo, which was trained to perfection, Ventress' Makashi was far from perfect. Unduli wasn't lying when she called it 'sloppy and unrefined' although perhaps exaggerating.
    Ventress' Makashi had clearly gotten a lot better in the second half of the war, when she could face off against multiple Jedi at a time and some times had very little difficulty, Tano even states that no one Jedi can face off against Ventress because she is too powerful, now obviously the likes of Windu and Yoda would clean house with her, but beyond those two I have no difficulty believing what Tano states.

    Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
    Interesting point about Jinn, that makes more sense. Nonetheless holding your own against an Ataru master of such a level is highly impressive, especially given the fact their were too of them. Neither did Maul seem to be struggling. On the other hand, Anakin and Obi-Wan clearly outclassed Ventress. Yes she managed to Force choke them but in a moment of desperation and anger (no doubt fuelled by her betrayal) and I doubt she would have succeeded in killing them.
    Well Maul smartly removes Kenobi for the second half of the fight until he kills Jinn, also as I have stated, Jinn was a great duellist, but by TPM he was clearly entering his twilight years as a Jedi Master and Maul's extreme conditioning was way beyond Qui-Gon's.

    Secondly, Ventress was injured, very injured due to Dooku's betrayal not just physically but mentally as well, so she would've been easy prey for just about any of the more powerful Jedi, but the fact she still manages to break through their force barriers with ease and force crush both of them is an obvious example of how powerful she was becoming, so much so that Sidious has Dooku attempt to destroy her because he fears that Dooku ay be training her to help replace him. and yet when Maul returns with Savage Opress, Sidious has absolutely no worries when he dispatches them, there is clearly a difference in power here as far as Sidious believes.


    Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
    And regarding her skill in telekinetics, its obviously there but in a pitched battle against a highly aggressive form and a highly durable opponent will not give her much of an advantage. Especially given that Maul can respond in kind if necessary.
    It is not just telekinetics though, it is a very cunning display of Dun Moch, a very advanced force jump and exceptional force speed, not to mention that Ventress' displays of telekinesis is WAY beyond anything Maul has displayed.
    "The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
    Republic Justice