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The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 07: Darth Maul vs. Asajj Ventress

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 07: Darth Maul vs. Asajj Ventress

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.06.2013 , 12:06 PM | #1
Welcome to the seventh match of The BattleZone. Our previous match saw Kit Fisto defeat Agen Kolar in the Jedi Library on Coruscant.

Our next battle will be waged between Darth Sidious' apprentice Darth Maul, and Count Dooku's rogue assassin Asajj Ventress. Due to a tie in the vote, I have elected to use Darth Maul as he was in The Phantom Menace for this match. I will use Darth Maul as he is in The Clone Wars for his next match, whether it be in round two or round one of the Loser's tournament.

Battlefield: Theed Palace

Lightsaber skill:

Darth Maul:

Trained to perfection by his master, Darth Sidious, Darth Maul was a master lightsaber duelist. His focus on a purely physical victory led him to study and master the Juyo lightsaber, and couple it with his mastery of Niman, Jar'Kai, and his use of the double-bladed lightsaber.

Because of his training in Juyo, Maul was an incredibly aggressive fighter. He devoted his time to the physical aspects of fighting, forgoing the Sith tactic of Dun Moch in order to completely dominate his opponents through martial prowess.

Darth Maul's defense was strong, capable of holding off Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi until he could lead them into an area to take advantage of Qui-Gon Jinn's weaknesses.

Darth Maul often incorporated his Teras Kasi mastery into lightsaber combat, giving him even greater utility in combat.

Asajj Ventress:

Asajj Ventress was trained in the Makashi form of lightsaber combat by Count Dooku. She was given the two lightsabers of fallen Jedi Komari Vosa by Dooku to use in combat. She could connect these two weapons at the pommel to form a double-bladed lightsaber.

Through the course of her training, and subsequent missions, Ventress continued to hone her skills. Eventually mastering the art of Jar'Kai dual-wielding.

Early in her career she suffered from two major weaknesses: the inherent defensive weakness of Jar'Kai practitioners, and an over-reliance on her second blade. She eventually overcame these weaknesses, displaying impressive defenses and skill in single blade combat. She also displayed skill in unarmed combat.

Ventress' defenses are very impressive. She has proved capable of defending herself against several enemies at a time.

However, Ventress' abilities in lightsaber combat were often deemed to be sloppy and without tact by both Luminara Unduli and Darth Sidious.

Edge: I find the edge difficult to give for this category. Both have shown impressive defenses, and strong offensives. However, Darth Maul's capabilities in lightsaber combat are simply honed to perfection by Darth Sidious. Darth Maul gets the edge, but only a slight edge over Ventress' very impressive skills.

Physicality:

Darth Maul:

Darth Maul is a young, physically fit Zabrak. As such, Darth Maul was physically strong and agile, and possessed a remarkable resistance to pain.

Asajj Ventress:

Asajj Ventress is a young, physically fit Dathomirian. She has incredible athletic skills, but other than that, no notable physical advantages.

Edge: Darth Maul and Asajj Ventress are physically similar to each other, but Darth Maul's inherent Zabrak physicality gives him the edge.

Mentality:

Darth Maul:

Due to his harsh training under Darth Sidious, Darth Maul became little more than a vessel of hate, especially against the Jedi Order. However, he was still capable of feeling respect for others, granting them quick deaths. He was also capable of forming emotional attachments, showing a genuine brotherhood with Savage Opress.

Darth Maul was noted by Darth Sidious as being very prideful- even arrogant. He believed himself capable of killing every Jedi in the Jedi Temple- even the Jedi High Council- on his own. Darth Maul was often prone to gloating, which was what led to his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi on Naboo.

However, Darth Maul possesses an incredibly strong will. He is often willing to sustain any pain until his mission is completed. He was obsessed with achieving victory at any cost.

In combat, Darth Maul was an intuitive duelist. He would take advantage of an opponent's weakness to defeat them. When his lightsaber skill was insufficient, he would often rely on his tactical know-how to outmaneuver his enemies and move them into positions where he had an advantage.

Asajj Ventress:

After her Jedi mentor's death on Rattatak, Ventress became vengeful towards the Jedi because she believed that the Jedi had abandoned her master. Upon entry into Count Dooku's service, Ventress' hate became obsession, which eventually became focused on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Darth Sidious considered her to be tactless when it came to fighting Jedi.

Ventress has displayed a great deal of arrogance and overconfidence after slaying several Jedi, to the point where she would fly into a rage if her skills were ever understated or spoken against.

In combat, Ventress used the environment to her advantage. During her duel with Luminara Unduli, she attacked a steam pipe to partially blind the Jedi Master.

Edge: Both of them are intuitive and tactical fighters, but they both have their flaws. However, it is unlikely that either of them will take advantage of these mental flaws. It is likely that they will try to maneuver each other into positions advantageous to them. I cannot give the edge to either of them.

Force Powers:

Darth Maul:

Darth Maul displayed a reasonable level of skill in telekinetics, as well as Force Choke and Force Grip. He was also resistant to Force lightning and telepathy.

However, due to Darth Maul's focus on physical combat, he did not use his Force powers in combat unless absolutely necessary.

Asajj Ventress:

Asajj Ventress has displayed incredible aptitude with the Force. She is capable of Force Choke and Force Grip, as well as enhancing her body with the Force to run at incredible speeds and to perform other acrobatics.

She has also displayed the ability to break through the Force resistances of other Force users to telekinetically assault them.

Edge: Darth Maul's focus on the physical aspects of combat cause him to rarely use his Force abilities, whereas Ventress has no qualms of using the Force mid-combat. Ventress gets the edge.

So who will win? Who is truly superior?
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
05.06.2013 , 12:21 PM | #2
Whilst Lord Maul's lightsaber skills are very impressive and highly honed, I don't believe that it is so good as to defeat Ventress outright, I also think that her use of Makashi is almost perfect to counter Maul's Juyo, if Padawan-turning-Knight Obi-Wan's Ataru can defeat Maul's Juyo, then Asajj's Makashi should by all means wreck Maul's Juyo.

Then not to mention that Ventress' force powers would wipe the floor with anything Maul can conjure up.

Ventress wins.
Kote! Kandosii sa ka'rta, Vode an.
Battle Honour

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.06.2013 , 12:32 PM | #3
I think the only thing I was really worried about was how TPM Maul and Ventress stacked up in terms of Force powers. But, in my opinion, I think Ventress would best TCW Maul in terms of Force powers anyway.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
05.06.2013 , 12:33 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Whilst Lord Maul's lightsaber skills are very impressive and highly honed, I don't believe that it is so good as to defeat Ventress outright, I also think that her use of Makashi is almost perfect to counter Maul's Juyo, if Padawan-turning-Knight Obi-Wan's Ataru can defeat Maul's Juyo, then Asajj's Makashi should by all means wreck Maul's Juyo.

Then not to mention that Ventress' force powers would wipe the floor with anything Maul can conjure up.

Ventress wins.
There is also the fact that, Maul had an edge over Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan using his double bladed saber(aswell as the other Jedi he fought). Something which isn't encountered regularly. Maul won't have this advantage, if Ventress knows about how the double bladed saber works. There is also the fact the big hilt is a flaw for Maul as it was exploited by Obi-Wan.

Hmm...you know what, I think I may have an idea for an Analysis thread..thanks Aurbere!
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
05.06.2013 , 12:49 PM | #5
Appologies in advance Beni, this argument won't be as long as I had intended, I simply do not have time for more at the moment, rest assured though my argument will enter this forum in its entirety

First things first, Aubere, I need to address something.
Ventress wins in the mentality department... Allow me to say why...
Maul believed in a swift, pure, physical victory, No taunts, and he did not study Dun Moch. Ventress however, loves playing with her opponents minds, taunting them, exploiting their weaknesses.
Whilst maul never fought any sith (That i know of) employing this technique, other than Sidious, a wonderful example of this is when he fought a force user, of far less power, in a one on one duel. On an unknown planet in the outer rim, maul was sent on a mission to murder Silus, a force sensitive using the force for monetary gain.
Sidious promised Silus to be his new apprentice if he could defeat maul, as a means of testing Maul. When maul saw a Holo-Recording of this proposal, he faltered.
Big time...

He became overwhelmed with emotions, and it nearly led to his death. He let his emotions get the better of him, where any normal sith would let their rage fuel them, and either realise that their masters offer was not sincere, or would plan to kill him at another time or flee...
Ventress could exploit this weakness, the fact maul was incredibly susceptible to taunts, with ease...
I know this is TPM maul, and thus this next part is invalid, but Kenobi was shown to taunt maul just as easily, forcing him into sloppiness...

Now, martial prowess...
In this duel, i see ventresses form easily being superior to mauls, and I won't touch on it more, as Rayla already has.

Quote:
Maul won't have this advantage, if Ventress knows about how the double bladed saber works. There is also the fact the big hilt is a flaw for Maul as it was exploited by Obi-Wan.
I'd just like to highlight this, maul knew Jar'kai, the dual saber form, but he never really used it in combat, as he wasn't anywhere near as powerful with it as he was with a dual blade... Ventress on the other hand knew Dual Blade well enough to fight with it, even well enough to face Kenobi with it, so that is something to note.
Maul will not be able to use his typical tactics of relying on his opponent not being fully aware of Dual Blade combat.
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Scoundrel
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.06.2013 , 01:08 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Appologies in advance Beni, this argument won't be as long as I had intended, I simply do not have time for more at the moment, rest assured though my argument will enter this forum in its entirety

First things first, Aubere, I need to address something.
Ventress wins in the mentality department... Allow me to say why...
Maul believed in a swift, pure, physical victory, No taunts, and he did not study Dun Moch. Ventress however, loves playing with her opponents minds, taunting them, exploiting their weaknesses.
Whilst maul never fought any sith (That i know of) employing this technique, other than Sidious, a wonderful example of this is when he fought a force user, of far less power, in a one on one duel. On an unknown planet in the outer rim, maul was sent on a mission to murder Silus, a force sensitive using the force for monetary gain.
Sidious promised Silus to be his new apprentice if he could defeat maul, as a means of testing Maul. When maul saw a Holo-Recording of this proposal, he faltered.
Big time...

He became overwhelmed with emotions, and it nearly led to his death. He let his emotions get the better of him, where any normal sith would let their rage fuel them, and either realise that their masters offer was not sincere, or would plan to kill him at another time or flee...
Ventress could exploit this weakness, the fact maul was incredibly susceptible to taunts, with ease...
I know this is TPM maul, and thus this next part is invalid, but Kenobi was shown to taunt maul just as easily, forcing him into sloppiness...
I had forgotten about that. Since that is the case, then I gues Ventress does get the mental advantage.

Quote:
Now, martial prowess...
In this duel, i see ventresses form easily being superior to mauls, and I won't touch on it more, as Rayla already has.
I don't know. I think Maul's sheer ferocity gives him an advantage over Ventress. At least forcing her onto the defensive, in which she would have to rely on the above and her acrobatics.

Quote:
I'd just like to highlight this, maul knew Jar'kai, the dual saber form, but he never really used it in combat, as he wasn't anywhere near as powerful with it as he was with a dual blade... Ventress on the other hand knew Dual Blade well enough to fight with it, even well enough to face Kenobi with it, so that is something to note.
Maul will not be able to use his typical tactics of relying on his opponent not being fully aware of Dual Blade combat.
As pointed out earlier, Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, while effective in it's own right, has the chance of being severed.

Having just watched the Obi-Wan vs. Maul duel in TPM, I don't know if this would really be a hindrance. Sure he wouldn't be in his element, but he showed impressive skill with the single blade... against a Knight-level Padawan, in which he was forced to use the Force to win.

Upon reflection, it would seem my personal preference for TPM Maul and my own desire to use him in the tournament may have been a mistake on my part. Well, can't do anything about now.


Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Hmm...you know what, I think I may have an idea for an Analysis thread..thanks Aurbere!
You're welcome.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.06.2013 , 01:25 PM | #7
I have to agree with Selenial that Ventress gets the mental edge, what may come across as arrogance and over-confidence is in fact an effective application of Dun Moch which she used constantly and to great effect. No doubt inherited from her master, Count Dooku.

Nonetheless I remain unconvinced Ventress will succeed. Firstly can someone explain to me how Makashi is rock to Juyo's scissors? Because I see no basis for this. Note the following:

Jedi battlemaster Cin Drallig listed bold, direct motions as characteristics of Juyo, qualifying them as more open and kinetic than Form V, but with a less elaborate appearance than Ataru....The form was said to necessitate greater energy than Form V, due to a broader wielding of a user's focus and a deeper emotional link.

...

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its lack of kinetic energy; the focus on precision and blade control hampered the ability to generate momentum in both its offensive and defensive maneuvers, leaving the attacks easily shunted aside and its parries easily battered aside. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength.


~ Wookieepedia

If anything Juyo has the advantage over Makashi, but certainly not the other way around - unless I have missed something. Juyo is vulnerable to Force based attacks which could be a boon to Ventress, but not enough to win.

Let's also note that Maul is an exceptional lightsaber duelist. He mastered Juyo, a highly difficult form which requires a level of skill in all forms, as well as Niman and Jar'Kai. He defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, one of the most skilled master's of his time and considered to be Windu's equal, and immediately prior to that managed to hold of both Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi (an exceptional duelist himself even as a Padawan) with ease. Then upon being resurrected he dominated Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel (albeit with the help of his legs) and managed to hold his own against Darth Sidious to the point of wearing him out. Note only Windu and Yoda were able to go toe-to-toe in such a manner.

Ventress on the other hand, while being a skilled duelist, has shown herself little match for Windu. And was easily defeated by her master Count Dooku, duelists Maul is arguably on par with if not superior (in Dooku's case). She was also unable to defeat Savage Oppress, whom Maul easily dominated when challenged. So while Ventress' Force powers will give her an advantage, they will only delay the inevitable - a swift and decisive victory for Maul.

As much as I love Ventress, I have to be a realist. Saving the fanboism for Traya.

EDIT: At what point did Obi Wan defeat Maul? I'd assume your referring to the point where he caught Maul off guard with an aggressive and focused flurry and managed to cut his blade in half and then proceeded to be soundly defeated.

What's more while Maul may refrain from using Force powers in battle, this attitude seemed to change after his resurrection, and even before then he utilized them in battle. They are also arguably superior to Ventress', remember this?

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
05.06.2013 , 01:33 PM | #8
No offence Beni, but a couple of your last points are completely invalid, due to them being TCW Maul.
Him dominating opress was after his resurrection, when he adopted a different fighting style. Besides, Savage wasnt trying to kill maul, or even wound him, he was trying to prove he is his equal, when during his fight with ventress, he had entered a rage and was out for blood.
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Scoundrel
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.06.2013 , 01:36 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
No offence Beni, but a couple of your last points are completely invalid, due to them being TCW Maul.
Him dominating opress was after his resurrection, when he adopted a different fighting style. Besides, Savage wasnt trying to kill maul, or even wound him, he was trying to prove he is his equal, when during his fight with ventress, he had entered a rage and was out for blood.
I'm not sure how losing one's legs has any effect on one's abilities. He didn't learn anything new, these are just skills he didn't use before. TPM Maul and TCW Maul are effectively the same person, I'm confused as to why people think otherwise and think TPM is somehow less powerful... A fair point about Savage though.

Also note, Maul is in expert in double-blade, single blade and dual blade. He displayed as much in TCW.

EDIT: Maul didn't even have special legs when he dueled Sidious. So again I'm not sure why these abilities are invalid. Did he take some sort of drug or something?

EDIT: If anything TCW Maul should be weaker as he languished in insanity for what, 10 years? Not exactly honing his skills. Or are we saying the Nightsisters imbued him with magic? I'm not sure there's much evidence to support that...

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.06.2013 , 01:43 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I have to agree with Selenial that Ventress gets the mental edge, what may come across as arrogance and over-confidence is in fact an effective application of Dun Moch which she used constantly and to great effect. No doubt inherited from her master, Count Dooku.

Nonetheless I remain unconvinced Ventress will succeed. Firstly can someone explain to me how Makashi is rock to Juyo's scissors? Because I see no basis for this. Note the following:

Jedi battlemaster Cin Drallig listed bold, direct motions as characteristics of Juyo, qualifying them as more open and kinetic than Form V, but with a less elaborate appearance than Ataru....The form was said to necessitate greater energy than Form V, due to a broader wielding of a user's focus and a deeper emotional link.

...

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its lack of kinetic energy; the focus on precision and blade control hampered the ability to generate momentum in both its offensive and defensive maneuvers, leaving the attacks easily shunted aside and its parries easily battered aside. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength.


~ Wookieepedia

If anything Juyo has the advantage over Makashi, but certainly not the other way around - unless I have missed something. Juyo is vulnerable to Force based attacks which could be a boon to Ventress, but not enough to win.

Let's also note that Maul is an exceptional lightsaber duelist. He mastered Juyo, a highly difficult form which requires a level of skill in all forms, as well as Niman and Jar'Kai. He defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, one of the most skilled master's of his time and considered to be Windu's equal, and immediately prior to that managed to hold of both Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi (an exceptional duelist himself even as a Padawan) with ease. Then upon being resurrected he dominated Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel (albeit with the help of his legs) and managed to hold his own against Darth Sidious to the point of wearing him out. Note only Windu and Yoda were able to go toe-to-toe in such a manner.

Ventress on the other hand, while being a skilled duelist, has shown herself little match for Windu. And was easily defeated by her master Count Dooku, duelists Maul is arguably on par with if not superior (in Dooku's case). She was also unable to defeat Savage Oppress, whom Maul easily dominated when challenged. So while Ventress' Force powers will give her an advantage, they will only delay the inevitable - a swift and decisive victory for Maul.

As much as I love Ventress, I have to be a realist. Saving the fanboism for Traya.
To be honest, I only considered TCW for Ventress' mentality. I never really saw Ventress mock her opponents mid-combat. Don't take my word for it because I haven't watched every episode yet.

Also, I agree regarding lightsaber forms. Sure Ventress has an athletic edge, but that's pretty small considering Maul's athleticism. Concerning Makashi's weakness to brute strength, I believe Dooku to be the exception to that (I have plenty of evidence to support that, but let's save it for Dooku's battle).

Though I would caution using Mace Windu as an example. He very clearly makes most duelists look amateur.

Also, you have used many TCW examples for Maul. But your TPM evidence is very well though out. We should also remember that during the Theed Palace duel, Maul was trying to lure Qui-Gon to an enclosed area to take advantage of Qui-Gon's weaknesses that he had observed on Tatooine (I would have to pick up the TPM novel, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened).
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus