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Huttball Championships - Rebels vs Separatists

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Huttball Championships - Rebels vs Separatists

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
04.21.2013 , 12:53 PM | #21
This Luke vs Dooku is actually a close matchup, it wouldn't be a stomp in any favor. But anyway were getting off track here a little, however the Seps still win there just isn't anything they could do to Durge.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.21.2013 , 01:20 PM | #22
A few things that need to be addressed:

Concerning troops: Commando droids are no doubt highly effective, however the Rebels have Alliance Special Forces which are a cut above from the rank and file. SpecForce troopers have been trained and use an array of weaponry including rifles, grenades and vibroblades and have also been trained in hand-to-hand combat. They are intelligent, adaptable and tactically aware and arguably a match for their droid counterparts.

Concerning Force lightning: Luke was unarmed when Sidious struck him with lightning and so unable to defend himself. Anakin was caught of guard, as in TCW series he has shown the ability to deflect lightning attacks. Given the fact that (in the novelization) Luke was able to partially catch and begin to redirect Sidious' lightning, and his steep learning curve in general, I reckon he'd be able to catch lightning with his blade instinctively.

Concerning lightsaber forms: Makashi is actually inherently weak against the power attacks of more aggresive Forms such as Djem So. And while a skilled user such as Dooku can make up for this weakness, it is the best form to use against them. Note the following:

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its lack of kinetic energy; the focus on precision and blade control hampered the ability to generate momentum in both its offensive and defensive maneuvers, leaving the attacks easily shunted aside and its parries easily battered aside. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength. ~ Wookieepedia

Nonetheless Dooku's Force lightning gives him a significant advantage.

P.S. I think I'm going to scrap the scoreboard idea, this debate is too intense!

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.21.2013 , 01:21 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
This Luke vs Dooku is actually a close matchup, it wouldn't be a stomp in any favor. But anyway were getting off track here a little, however the Seps still win there just isn't anything they could do to Durge.
A violent, lightning chained flurry from Galen Marek would likely keep Bane out of the picture for a while. Either way he only needs to be kept occupied.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.21.2013 , 01:43 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Heh.

No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIkpRkgaZk

If you skip to about 1:40 on this clip, that's more how I see this fight going down. Dooku picks Luke up in a choke, throws him down, dead Luke.

"One single blow" and they're dead? Really? Because Dooku did just fine for a good minute against Anakin, deflecting all sorts of blows. And he wasn't even defeated with on of the strong overhead strokes you're describing.

I'm actually not surprised you're overestimating RotJ Luke, this happens every single time he's brought up in one o these threads. But seriously, if you're going to make the argument that he will one-shot people, I suppose I can do the same.

LOL and this is where you obviously didn't pay attention to my original post Obi-wan AND Luke BOTH LOST when the Force was used against them. Like I said Luke vs. Dooku or Ventress will look exactly like Luke and the Emperor when he fried him to a screaming crisp.

Or, they can both just Force Choke him at the same time, crushing his windpipe instantly.
except Luke can use Force Choke against them just as well this is funny like i said EVERYONE underestimates RoTJ Luke you are exactly what i was thinking its not a question of if this is you not paying attention to the actual battle of Luke vs Vader not reading the Books and knowing next to nothing about force abilities outside of alter you underestimate Luke in ever respect he is capable of Force choke he has more force resistance then Obi-wan does telekentics is something vader is known for but vader didnt use it as it was known to be useles against his son at this point and had you read the book again you would know that dooku was hurt more by a single sword strike from anakin then from throwing obi-won around and RotJ Luke is at least if not MORE THEN DOUBLE anakin in every respect. there are more aspects to the force then alter Luke specialized in sensing his suroundings and controlling his own body had he not thrown away his saber its possible he would have defeated palpatine. YODA AND BEN both said so BOTH OF THEM KNEW luke could match up against PALPATINE with or without lightning had he just not thrown his saber away and given up, am i saying Luke would have defeated palp at that time, no i am not all i am saying is yoda who is fully aware of what palp is capable of looked at Luke knowing what he was capable of and went ya you can take him.... if he is > vader and vader is 80% of palp then Luke is at least 90% of palp. The fact that you think either ventress or dooku stand a chance in hell means you like most underestimate Luke.

He was not some padawan at the end of RotJ he was on the level of the greatest the Jedi had ever seen when Lucas was saying Luke was the most powerful jedi ever he wasnt just talking about EU he was talking about RotJ.

awnser this simple question if Luke was not greater then Yoda why would Yoda send him to single handedly do something that the combined strength of him and obi wan could not accomplish to do somthing that even Windu had failed to do. i am going to awnser it for you he wouldnt he sent Luke because his training was complete not just saber training he was just fine in telekentics.

Go watch episode 5 again he would stand on one hand while lifting multiple objects and he goes from that to being over 5 times stronger by RoTJ capable of mind tricks and Choking out Gamoreans with ease a species known for being tough. Takes on a small army of some of the best mercs the galaxy has to offer at jabba's barge single handedly (while boba had been defeated by chance it should be noted that boba had tied Luke up and with his sensory abilities and skill he was able to find and deflect a stray blaster bolt to cut boba's rope) Any one who does not realize that Luke in RoTJ is greater then even the likes of Windu are underestimating him greatly. He isnt some padawan who has no knowledge of the force and just really good with a saber if he was he would have been desimated by vader. Vader trained by using droids that was specialists in ever form of sword combat and had Super human strength speed and durability and would best 2 of them at the same time. This means Luke has some of these same qualities with dials turned up to 11 along with his precognitive powers.

He wasnt bested by just any Force lightning he was bested by the most powerful version of lightning to ever exist lightning that makes dooku's or ventress's look like static electricity and yet with how powerful it was it still took several minutes of completely undefended exposure to FAIL to kill Luke when it only took a matter of seconds of same exposure to SUCCESSFULLY kill Windu. Lets put that into perspective than about Lukes natural force barriers. Windu one of the orders most powerful dead in a matter of seconds..... Luke minutes and survives.

Again I am kind of tired of seeing threads that underestimate ROtJ Luke, acting like if ever faced any one from the prequals or faced any one at all other then Vader (which is funny cus Vader beat A LOT of people) he would be instantly decimated by force powers like he doesnt have any of his own like vader wasnt capable of using powerful telekenetics the only reason none of these things were shown is the same reason dooku stopped trying force lightning on yoda and went for pure saber...... because they would have been useless and every one in that room knew it.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.21.2013 , 02:52 PM | #25
I should note i am not saying Luke can beat any one on this team only that he can MATCH UP to any one on that team and should be able to 2v1 ventress and Dooku do to having similar style and capabilities of the man who beat them only double the strength, power skill and potentially speed thus taking both dooku and ventress out of the fight here had these both not been beaten by anakin using djem so and was it not a known fact that LUke was double anakin and used an even better version of the same style that had already bested these 2 i would not be argueing so heavily in Lukes favor. Grevious i actually find to possibly be a better match against Luke than these dooku or ventress his abilty to attack from 4 angles and his machine body alow him to be more able to with stand heavy blows from Luke and the way that he was beat it is unclear that Luke would actually be able to beat him Although i do believe with his skill in saber and his force powers and Lack of any problem luke has of using technology to help him win i do believe he can fight even with if not beat grevious.

But dooku and Ventress were both bested by a djem so user less then half that of RotJ Luke thus they should be able to be 2v1 by Luke. while galen can take out grevious with force lightning the only ones i dont have enough info on to judge and i have left almost entirely out of this analysis are Durge and Rohm.

Also should be noted i am not argueing galen because most people seem to over estimate him rather then underestimate him like they do Luke. For one thing one of his best accomplishments is, like Luke, he bested darth vader but it never seems to be taken into account WHEN he bested the dark lord. He bested darth vader in between episode 3 and episode 4 and as known from the rise of darth vader novel during this time period vader was actually weaker then anakin. In fact the words of the emporer if truelly listened to can pretty much tell you this, he calls vader a shell of his former self a lot of people took this to mean that vader's potential had been destroyed which it is true that it was but i invite you to take it another way that he, at that time, had not just lost his potential but even his current power was less then anakin. This is supported by several other things including a statement (not sure if it was Lucas or leeland) that said Galen was supposed to be a show of how powerful Luke would have been in episode 5 had he instead of being trained by yoda he was trained by Vader. This to me suggests that Galen was actually slightly weaker then ESB Luke which is supported by the novel Shadow of the empire (chronologically came after ESB and is on the same cannon lvl as FU) where vader calls ESB Luke the most powerful opponent he had ever faced.

Now i know this book was written before the prequels and before FU but they are still in the same universe and technically as the statement can be explained and shown to be true through the use of other novel's that came after FU and after the prequels its statement along with the events of FU dont actually conflict, as like I said Galen didnt defeat ESB vader he defeated a vader that could very well, if not assuradly, was weaker then anakin as such Galen could potentially lose to dooku, though i doubt it more likely that he would fight dooku to a draw and defeat ventress, but do to his ability with force lightning and grevious's entire lack of force powers (not assumed he is not capable of using the force its not the same as luke all of his strength comes from tech not the force unlike Luke) would mean he would be vunerable to this type of attack.

So again remeber that FU and Shadow are the same lvl of cannon and should be treated as such and as you can see here and with support from the novel rise of darth vader both vader losing to galen and then later defeating ESB luke and then calling ESB Luke the more powerful of the 2 can in fact be 100% true and most likely is do to statements made by the emporer in FU and the information given in the rise of darth vader novel.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
04.21.2013 , 07:45 PM | #26
On my phone, so can't send a long reply but warren, ventress can't leap over the fire, it says no jumping over obstacles.....
But beni, clarify, can grievious climb under?
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Scoundrel
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

YoshiRaphElan's Avatar


YoshiRaphElan
04.21.2013 , 08:45 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Addressing Luke:

No one ever said Luke wasn't a skilled fighter. But listen. How did Anakin do against lightning? How did Luke? What do Ventress and Dooku have? Lightning. Vader did not have lightning, and Luke defeated him. But as soon as the Emperor poored lightning on Luke, he was doomed. He simply did not know how to counter it during RotJ. So yes, Luke is a grade-A duelist. But, unfortunately for him, Ventress and Dooku don't need to best him in combat. They just need to zap him a few times.
Actually, Luke couldn't parry the lightning because he'd thrown away his saber. If he actually had his weapon in-hand, he might be able to deflect the lightning. We can't fairly judge that because he was never shown facing a lightning-user while armed.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
04.21.2013 , 09:02 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by YoshiRaphElan View Post
Actually, Luke couldn't parry the lightning because he'd thrown away his saber. If he actually had his weapon in-hand, he might be able to deflect the lightning. We can't fairly judge that because he was never shown facing a lightning-user while armed.
Good point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg

However, this can still happen (0:00-0:19). Obviously, if you are not trained to deflect lightning, as I'm almost sure Luke is not, a lightsaber won't do much good against it, for sure if he's taking an aggressive stance and dashing at Dooku to get in a slash.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
04.21.2013 , 09:04 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Warren, Ventress can't leap over the fire, it says no jumping over obstacles.....
But beni, clarify, can grievious climb under?
Ah, true. Well, she can leap to other platforms then. If Grievous can't do his awesome 4-legged spider-type thing, that's just lame. That's one of his coolest advantages!
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.22.2013 , 01:14 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Good point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg

However, this can still happen (0:00-0:19). Obviously, if you are not trained to deflect lightning, as I'm almost sure Luke is not, a lightsaber won't do much good against it, for sure if he's taking an aggressive stance and dashing at Dooku to get in a slash.
first off in this one anakin was not thinking straight nor was he any where near as good as he was towards the end or as vader. I think I may be starting to see the problem with peoples thoughts on RoTJ Luke.

RotJ Luke along with Vader/anakin is the only instance where A>B>C logic works and its not just because one is more powerful then the other but because of the way RoTJ Luke was trained and the feats that were shown and described in the movies and the books.

Firstly Luke learned next to no LS combat from his mentor's his style was an exact mirror of Vader's but with dials going to 11. Thus in saber combat any one anakin or vader defeated in saber combat would fall even faster against Luke as Luke is using the same exact thing but better.

secondly everything he learned from his mentors was based around increasing his physical body his senses and his telekentic powers. The last of which was something Vader bested him with in ESB and was one more thing Luke attempted to mimic of his father.

Luke's plan to defeat his father was to become his equal in every single way and in RotJ the movie tries to show you that he not only succeeded but surpassed his father in every way. The first scene you see of Luke is him choking 2 gamoreans with little effort, up until this point no one had ever choked more then 1 person at a time Luke was the first to choke 2, Though the number i generally dont count as its generally assumed vader could do the same and probably has in other media by now but the whole point of the scene is to show that Luke has massivly improved and to show how he is beggining to mirror his fathers abilities the next scene is a similar mirror to vader's past showings in the movies when Luke grabs a blaster from a guy and it goes shooting accrossed the room and neatly into Luke's hand. This scene was meant to be a direct mirror the when vader took the blaster from Han. Its to simbolize again that Luke had become Vader's equal in every single way imaginable.

Finally by defeating his father at the end it suggests that not only like shown before was he his father's equal in every way but that he was in fact his supperior in every way Luke trained to mimic his father's every ability and not only did he succeed in mirroring them he succeeded in surpasing them. He surpassed his father to such a point that when Luke fought Vader, Vader fell under the pressure about 1 minute. Knowing the power and skill difference between RoTJ Vader and RoTS Anakin suggests that Vader would defeat anakin in a similar time frame. And if people Like Vader and anakin (who relly on shear power to over come there opponents) are over come by shear power in under a minute those that are more vunerable to such an attack such as dooku or ventress would fall even faster this is why i believe if they were to pull their sabers Luke would end then in less then 10 Seconds and why i believe it would look Like Sidious vs the 3 masters.

Also should be noted that the first time Luke did face a lightning user while armed he had no problem instinctivly deflecting it and since RotJ Luke knows it exists do to his run in with the emporer he will not be surprised by it and will react the same way he did when he first ran into it armed later down the road Dooku and Ventress 2v1 Luke and lose in seconds.

This being said if I were the seperatists i would send durge and greivous to attack Luke first while i believe Luke could defeat greivous do to shear power, great saber skill and the ability to use the force he is slightly tougher and more durable then either dooku or ventress and doesnt have such glaring weaknesses as those 2 have along with durge (as far as i know) being a friken tank would be able to hold Luke at bay for some time. While Dooku could square off against galen which (if any of you read one of my previous posts) would be a much more even fight, and finally of course ventress squaring off with Rohm which could go who knows where R2 would not come into play until the middle was more controlled as such until the battle was decided he would remain out and hidden.

If the rebels are smart Galen will try to fry greivous early and Luke will engage ventress and Dooku taking out 3 of the seps in a matter of seconds so the whole team can turn on durge. once thats taken care of the middle should be hard to regain back as the seps will be trying to fight there way through all kinds of traps and the rebel team all the way from their end zone to the middle.