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Developer Update: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Class Changes

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Class Changes
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Master-Nala's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 02:05 PM | #21
Containment: The activation time reduction on Force Lift has been reduced in effectiveness. Previously, this skill gave Balance a lot of extra lockdown that we weren’t too pleased with, and after the introduction of Force Barrier, Balance’s ability to flee and avoid conflict exceeded acceptable levels. Now this skill reduces the activation time of Force Lift to 1.5 seconds. The stun effect when Force Lift ends prematurely due to damage has not been altered.
I don't even have words for how wrong this is. I've seen it on both sides of Force Barrier. Force Barrier is a decent utility but does not address that Balance Sages/Sorcerors really don't have any real way to keep enemies at bay. This tree RELIES on fleeing and avoiding melee. Balance is a damage over time spec in a class that has little passive protection. It needs ways to keep enemies at bay.

VigDiath's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 02:19 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by LovarBoy View Post
It's funny how Sorcs / Sages are yelling for love... both classes got the most "love" with 2.0 and both classes are now horrible in PvP as an enemy.

Sorry, but if you can't kill people in PvP, you're doing it wrong. You got so many annoying ways to CC your opponent, it's ridiculous that BioWare is that dumb and blind to allow something like this right now.

Stop crying, other classes like the PT are in a much worse position - they are completely useless by now.
PT is useless?? PT is an awesome class to play in PvP and still tops the boards in damage. With a healer by their side, they just run around killing stuff!!! If you can't beat a sorc/sage in pvp its a L2P issue or they are just better than you.
Jedi Covenant (The Baltimore Legacy)
Laaron - 55 (Shadow Tank) Eulora - 55 (Sage Healer)
Madmartygan - 55 (Guardian DPS) Skylaadawn - 55 (Sab Smug)
Akon - 55 (Carnage Marauder) L'aron - 53 (Sorc Healer)

sainik's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 02:35 PM | #23
Also, even if you did consider balance shadow to be daunting (which I am sure many people will disagree with), its good to have a variety in skill caps. There are already many east to play specs out there, you did not need to add another one to the list at the expense of losing a chunk of players who liked the balance spec pre 2.0.

Altheran's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 02:45 PM | #24
I want to point an oddity in Kinetic Combat Shadow gameplay : if you use Kinetic Ward as often as possible like before, you may lose in efficiency :
- Before, the CD matched the duration, so the equation was simple : if avaliable, use it.
- Now, in the case all the stacks didn't wore off at the end of the 15s CD (5sec remaining), not only refreshing it before the end of the 20 seconds of effect may lead to a loss in a number of times the shield will work (the 15 stacks may wore off before the next 15s, reducing the shielding percentage during the last seconds), but it makes Kinetic Bulwark stacks to disappear and it's known that +15% shielding and +8% absorption is better than +15% shielding without absorption bonus. But in the case there is only Kinetic Bulwark left, it's better refreshing Kinetic Ward and dumping Kinetic Bulwark. So you now you are supposed to refresh it when the stacks are not anymore, which can occur at any time between 15s and 20s, and you need to keep a continuous track of them. As a Shadow, I have two means of doing it, the buff bar or the (ugly) floating rocks. An Assassin only have his buff bar as hint.

In my opinion, the way Kinetic Ward and Kinetic Bulwark is abnormal. A bad timing in a buff refreshing, may imply a loss later during the fight, but shouldn't imply an instantaneous power loss.

So, I have sevral ideas :
- Kinetic Bulwark wears off only after 20s, refreshing Kinetic Ward doesn't consume Kinetic Bulwark anymore. (Implies a very slight improvement in survivability, but the philosophy of the ability is what it was before 2.0, "use it when you can")
- Kinetic Ward doesn't have a duration (endless buff), but can't be refreshed until all stacks wear off. (No improvements in survivability, no timing error possible while keeping the new philosophy of the ability, "use it when it wears off")
- Consuming Kinetic Bulwark stacks by refreshing Kinetic Ward increases Kinetic Ward's shielding chance bonus.
(Implies a improvement in survivability, same philosophy as before 2.0, "use it when you can")

PS : I hate Phase Walk. It has few use, and I think it doesn't fit Star Wars. We've seen Jedis and Siths, moving fast, jumping serval meters, to not be where we see them because of Force illusions, and now teleporting ? Really ?

Phesojss's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 03:07 PM | #25
I completely agree with the full assessments of the balance shadow, and how bad they are now, that several prior people have laid out in point by point detail. I cannot see for the life of me WHY any one would now choose to play a balance shadow that did not play one before. Those who did play a Balance shadow before 2.0 will play something else, I would recommend a Dirty Fighting Scoundrel.

Austin P. did a good job with several advanced classes for 2.0, (knights/Warriors and Scoundrels/Agents however the balance shadow is a complete failure on so many levels. THE prime failure is that ALL the fun was removed in an unneeded effort to simplify. It would be interesting to see how many pre 2.0 Balance Shadows switched specs, went to an Alt or both.

Merras's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 04:36 PM | #26
Containment: The activation time reduction on Force Lift has been reduced in effectiveness. Previously, this skill gave Balance a lot of extra lockdown that we weren’t too pleased with, and after the introduction of Force Barrier, Balance’s ability to flee and avoid conflict exceeded acceptable levels. Now this skill reduces the activation time of Force Lift to 1.5 seconds. The stun effect when Force Lift ends prematurely due to damage has not been altered.
Dear developers please start playing with a Sage / Sorcerer. I know Sniper is your favouirte but you need some experience with other classes too.

Instant Force Lift is a must have in PvP against melee classes. Force Barrier is simply not enough: Sages has absolutely no damage mitigation because of light armor. I see your reasoning why Shadows should not have another 1 min instant CC - but for Sages it is essential. Force Lift now can be interrupted, suffers from pushback, etc. - when I have to flee casting Force Lift is a serious risk now.

Most of the Balance changes are welcomed: 15 ticks of Force Supression, Force in Balance affects 5 targets... these are good.

However the extra talents before Sever Force are bad jokes. Increased alacrity???? For a spec with instant cast dots???? With 4 stacks of Telekinetic Focal Point AND with Mental Alacrity I can channel Telekinetic Throw 0.4 seconds faster... OMG. My filler ability channels faster - in exchange I have to put 5 points into completely useless talents to reach Sever Force. With the right talents Mind Crush and Turbulence are instant skills (because of proccing Presence of Mind), so the ONLY effected spell is TK. These new alacrity based abilities would be much better for Telekinetics or Seer sages, but not for Balance.

I hope some day you will revamp Balance tree to meet the actual gameplay - not the theoretical one you have in your mind.

Monterone's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 04:51 PM | #27
You're right Merras, in my opinion Alacrity is less useful to this tree as well. (madness)

Sure, it will speed up the animations too so the extra 4% alacrity will speed up those wrath CDs and LSs, it will speed up the channel FL, but it really does nothing for what the main focus of this tree is -- DoTs. It does not speed up the application of dots, and therefore it is less useful. Madness in some situations is a 'cast and forget' spec, and with that in mind and with the crit multiplier on dots, it is far more valuable to stack surge than alacrity.

In fact, I plan on using more alacrity on my deception sin than I do on my sorc. Why on deception sin... because all attacks are instant and used in rapid succession. A 1% increase in animation speed should mean a flat 1% increase to my damage, more than 1% surge would boost the damage for.
Zombie . Silk . Sinestro
Satele Shan

Dropfall's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 05:44 PM | #28
Madness (Assassin)

Prior to 2.0, Madness Assassins had a laundry list of ability priorities. For better or worse, playing Madness correctly as an Assassin was pretty daunting and exhausting. We wanted to take 2.0 as an opportunity to reevaluate Madness’s priorities one ability at a time. We are aware that some players will be disappointed to learn that Madness’s “rotation” has been simplified as a result, but their existing gameplay left little room for growth (on our side) and little room for error (on your side).
Disappointed is the understatement of the year inregards to many changes you Austin are solely responsible for. Speaking strictly from a PVE experience, Madness SIn was relatively easy to play, as long as you did not use Unearthed Knowledge; and only then because of force regen issues, not because of how many buttons there are.

Now in 2.0, Madness Assassins can get the same results with a smoother, less complex list of abilities and ability priorities. We like that we can make these kinds of gameplay adjustments with the time we have, but we’re also sensitive to what can be perceived as “fundamentally” changing a spec. We don’t believe we’ve fundamentally changed Madness Assassins as they are still very much drain skirmishers, but we will be keeping an eye on how Madness Assassins get played and on player feedback. We’re confident that the changes we’ve made will actually make Madness Assassins a more attractive option to players that were previously turned off by their complexity.
Madness Assassins dont do the same dmg anymore; they just flat out dont. And they werent anywhere near the top dps prior to 2.0, so you Austin dropped the ball incrediably.

•Shock, Chain Shock, and Unearthed Knowledge: Prior to 2.0, Shock served as little more than a way to apply Unearthed Knowledge. Worse, Chain Shock was actually in the Madness skill tree, which reinforced the idea that Shock was a good Madness ability. In 2.0, we’ve removed Unearthed Knowledge and moved Chain Shock into the Deception skill tree to try and paint a clearer picture. Madness Assassins no longer rely on Shock for sustained damage, but it’s still a perfectly viable ability for bursting a target down.
Incase you were completely unaware, there were two (2) camps of thinking (as opposed to the one (1) you're suggesting there Austin) in regards to Unearthed Knowledge/Shock; those who use it, and those who didnt. Personally I found it a dps loss due to Force cost. Seeing a picture appearing yet Austin?

•Calculating Mind and Lingering Nightmares: With the removal of Shock from a sustained damage priority list, Madness Assassins have a lot more Force available. With this in mind, Calculating Mind has been replaced with Lingering Nightmares, which increases the duration of Crushing Darkness.
How does having shock gone relate to Calculating Mind and Lingering Nightmares? Do you even know what you're talking about? Calculating Mind was the Force Regen device attached to Death Fields Deathmarks. Lingering Nightmares replaced Unearthed Knowledge, which brings me back to how the hell does Lingering Nightmares having anything do with Force availabiltiy? You never ever ever hardcast Crushing Darkness as an Assassin, well not unless you're really special...

•Duplicity: Duplicity is now located further up the Deception skill tree. Previously, Duplicity was available to a fully Madness-specialized Assassin, which is something we should have never done. In general, we don’t like making gameplay-altering skills available as “low hanging fruit” in other skill trees because they alter your established gameplay after-the-fact. This isn’t so much a balance concern as it is a usability and complexity concern. In this specific case, adding Duplicity on top of a full Madness spec felt clunky. Worse, it wasn’t necessary. We’re fully capable of providing the same damage boost to players without requiring them to master additional gameplay. This change aims to do exactly that.
Clunky? Are you effing kidding me? Clunky? Wow.
Discharge, Creeping Terror, Death Field, Thrash till proc, Crushing Darkness... Now what? I use Thrash/Saber Strike till I get a Crushing Darkness proc again or have to reapply the Discharge + Creeping Terror or click drop a Death Field? Youve basically made 8s of utter boredom and weak hits between procs. Also...

Click/drop Death Field; you have to physically place an intricate part of the spec, and you call using Maul clunky?
Maul + Duplicity was needed filler within the spec, and yet you killed it. You cant even thinking of using Maul now, it hits like a wet noodle, and has a ridiculously expensive Force cost. Operatives can get Backstab for 10 energy or for free, and yet Maul is 50 Force...

•Haunted Dreams: The activation time reduction on Whirlwind has been reduced in effectiveness. Previously, this skill gave Madness a lot of extra lockdown that we weren’t too pleased with, and after the introduction of Phase Walk, Madness’s ability to flee and avoid conflict exceeded acceptable levels. Now this skill reduces the activation time of Whirlwind to 1.5 seconds. The stun effect when Whirlwind ends prematurely due to damage has not been altered.
Austin are you even aware that Whirlwind as Assassin lasted about 4s on a target in pvp? Wooo so much avoidance time in that. Already the most fragile glass class in the game, and you remove one of the only decent abilities.

•Shapeless Spirit: This new utility skill reduces all damage taken by 30% while stunned. Madness has a good deal of self healing through effects like Parasitism and Death Field, but this healing isn’t on-demand and can’t counter burst at key moments. As a result, Madness is especially vulnerable to being bursted down while controlled, so we added Shapeless Spirit to help Madness’s survivability in that department.
30% percent wont help you ever. Burst specs will still cave your skull in because they've already reduced your health to about 30-40% of the original. Madness Sins then need to apply dots, drop Death Field, and then Thrash for proc. Meanwhile that Burst spec player is still attacking. There at 100% health, you're at 30-40%... hmm whose gonna win, the person who uses Dots to kill or the person who has insane Burst every few seconds?

Way to utterly ruin what was once one of the funnest specs to play Austin.

Wrthlessnoob's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 05:51 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Monterone View Post
How come you don't think sorcerers could use a sub 30% health execution talent, akin to Bloodletting? Op is a healer too and I see no issue with them having it in the dps tree?
?? Operatives have no sub 30% health execute talent.
Are you talking about this?
I wouldn't exactly call it an "execute talent". Dots are only the set up fluff damage for lethality. The real burst is from cull.
Jedi Covenant

gabranthxiii's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 06:59 PM | #30
I only have one complaint, and its about the gear for the entire consular class. It looks like **** guys, seriously the gear looks like a mix of a Mexican wrestler and a samurai its looks plain out stupid as hell. I do have to admit the black looking samurai gear for pvp looks pretty cool but other than that it looks terrible. For the next gear update ask the players what gear they would like to see for each class, it would seriously cut down on most of the complaining.