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Theory on the Emperor's Fate [SPOILERS]

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Theory on the Emperor's Fate [SPOILERS]

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.20.2013 , 09:01 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
In that case, I will now operate on the assumption that anything said in the game but not actually seen and contradicted by many others in and out of the game should be brought into question, because it's possible its not the truth.
Corrected that for you.

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
04.20.2013 , 09:13 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Really? Interesting I have not played the JK storyline as was not aware of that. This may very well be the case and explain he continual presence, whereas even a Sith Lord like Sidious couldn't remain in contact with the physical world after his 'death'.
The JC storyline has the Plague Lord (Lord Vivicar) who
Spoiler
The Emperor could exist in this state too theoretically.
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Well like I explained, it is more the possible that the Emperor we see is a second incarnation, and that the Emperor may have died before - as hinted by Hall Hood. This would explain his race. However I must admit I also thought that the mask might be to hide his hybrid pure blood appearance, which, simply put, is beyond the capabilities of whatever skin set they are using in this game. Drew gave him a very complex, ambiguous appearance which is difficult to visualize. But still, it may have been to keep us guessing, and they do where the same robes which would suggest they are the same person...

Thanks for your responses everyone!
The reincarnation theory would also explain why the Sith Warrior ws told he wasn't dead, but the Makeb storyline says he is, the council were expecting him to possess a new host, and for some reason he didn't/couldn't.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
04.20.2013 , 02:36 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You seem to be treating me as if I'm some kind of politician, and have a vested interest in believing the Emperor is dead and will therefore fabricate material to make it look like this is the case. I do not, its just what I believe given the material I have been presented with. I'm perfectly happy to change my mind, yet nothing has really convinced me.
You said it, not me. You may not be fabricating evidence but you are certainly ignoring some lines of dialogue, whenever it fits your needs. If we're not to trust in what the game tells us, what's the point? Again, we may ignore the storylines altogether and just assume every single character in the game has a vivid imagination.

This is the way I see it.

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The Hand's say the Emperor is dead. They give me no proof, they have reasons to lie, I therefore do not believe them.
And what proof has the Jedi Council to offer? Exactly. Absolutely nothing.

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If the Emperor, in game, came right up to me and said 'I'm alive' then I'd change my mind and it would be illogical to disagree. In that case the game would be telling me the Emperor is alive. However in this case, in-game characters are telling me the Emperor is alive, and providing no proof - big difference. I do not have to believe them.
I ask again: Has Satele and Saresh provided proof that the Emperor is dead?

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Especially since Darth Marr has told me that the Emperor is dead, and so has Hall Hood, pretty definitively. I didn't find any evidence of what you said in that video either I'm afraid, perhaps I missed it.
I asked for a link for that and you failed to provide one. Repeating it, over and over won't make it true. Besides, like I mentioned, in the video I provided, Hall Hood says the fate of the Emperor is unclear and Darth Marr doesn't say that the Emperor is dead either in the imperial storyline for Makeb.

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I'm not saying it is the case, but it is a possibility. And if it was the case it wouldn't raise any glaring errors or plot holes but rather correct and fill them.
You're not correcting anything at all... You're just ignoring blatant evidence that doesn't fit a particular theory of yours. It doesn't help or benefit the debate, when you try to put aside what the game tells you, whenever you dislike it. Your attitude goes like this...

"Wowwww... Satele, Marr and Malgus say the Emperor is dead, regardless the fact that two of them actually don't. The Emperor's Hand says to the Wrath that he's not dead but what the hell? They're lying and so from hence forth, I'll just announce he's dead. It doesn't matter what the game says to me... Or rather, it does, but only when I find it convenient."

Not trying to be offensive but that's the way you're running your theory. I love this kind of topics but it becomes increasingly hard to discuss, whenever someone tries to DELIBERATELY ignore whatever the game tells to us.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.20.2013 , 02:47 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
*snip*
You are misinterpreting my theory for fact. The game has provided us no proof that the Emperor is dead, neither has it provided any evidence that he is alive. We as the player and left to make our own decision, the game practically invites us to do so!

I am not ignoring what the game is telling me, hence why I take what the Hand said into account. You are in the same position as I am, you believe the Emperor is alive, so your giving reasons for why what Marr and Satele say is not indicative of the truth. I am doing the same but for the opposing side, neither of us can say we are right, but we can give reasons for why are side is more likely. So really we should not be getting bogged down in whether this stance can be adopted or not, and instead actually debate the theory itself. Your stance is valid, my stance is valid. You say that you'd like to have this debate, yet seem to be attempting to knock the chair from under my argument, rendering it entirely moot. What do you want me to say? "My stance is entirely wrong and cannot be upheld in anyway /unsubscribe and delete thread.

And as for the link, I'm afraid your just going to have to trust that I didn't make it up. As I said in by post the podcast is no longer available, if you can get hold of it, that would be great.

maxetius's Avatar


maxetius
04.20.2013 , 06:02 PM | #25
Hall Hood interview said the Knight destroyed the Emperor's body.

IN other words his true body. Remember he wasn't fazed when the voice on Voss died but suddenly is extremely weakened when his voice on DK dies? No Bioware's 'amazing storylines' are long gone. Knight destroyed his true body, forget older canon.

He is at best a force ghost looking for something else to possess.


It's extremely obvious that Darth Marr is going to take the forefront for a while.

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
04.20.2013 , 11:09 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You are misinterpreting my theory for fact. The game has provided us no proof that the Emperor is dead, neither has it provided any evidence that he is alive.
Yes it has, unless of course, once more, we're to question the validity of the info the game provides through mails and stuff.

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We as the player and left to make our own decision, the game practically invites us to do so!
You are not left to make a decision when the game provides info about it. As said before, over and over and over again, the Emperor's Hand clearly states that the Emperor, although weakened, is still alive.

Doesn't get much clearer than that. Ignoring it won't change anything at all.

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I am not ignoring what the game is telling me, hence why I take what the Hand said into account. You are in the same position as I am, you believe the Emperor is alive, so your giving reasons for why what Marr and Satele say is not indicative of the truth.
Yet you have failed to provide thus far the source of your claim. I've already provided the link where Hood says the Emperor's fate is unclear. Where's yours? Nowhere to be seen thus far.

And no, given the fact that my claim is backed up by both the game, I'm nowhere near in the same position, not to mention the bit concerning Hall Hood I mentioned repeatedly in this thread.

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I am doing the same but for the opposing side, neither of us can say we are right, but we can give reasons for why are side is more likely.
You haven't given a single reason thus far, other than disputing the validity of what has been told to us by the game and a vague statement by Hood, that you have failed to back up.

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So really we should not be getting bogged down in whether this stance can be adopted or not, and instead actually debate the theory itself. Your stance is valid, my stance is valid. You say that you'd like to have this debate, yet seem to be attempting to knock the chair from under my argument, rendering it entirely moot. What do you want me to say? "My stance is entirely wrong and cannot be upheld in anyway /unsubscribe and delete thread.
You are entitled to your theory but IMO, you should at least have some facts to back it up, which you don't. Instead, you insist in ignoring what you find inconvenient and distort here and there, what you find convenient.

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And as for the link, I'm afraid your just going to have to trust that I didn't make it up. As I said in by post the podcast is no longer available, if you can get hold of it, that would be great.
Apologies but I don't. Not saying you're not being honest about it but I'm going to assume that you most likely misunderstood him... Like I said, in a video available for everyone, Hall Hood says the Emperor's fate is unclear.

Quote: Originally Posted by maxetius View Post
Hall Hood interview said the Knight destroyed the Emperor's body.
Provide source or forever hold your peace, not to mention that, as I said already, Hall Hood mentioned that the Emperor's fate is unclear.

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IN other words his true body. Remember he wasn't fazed when the voice on Voss died but suddenly is extremely weakened when his voice on DK dies? No Bioware's 'amazing storylines' are long gone. Knight destroyed his true body, forget older canon.
Yet again, one more person contradicting what the game says.

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He is at best a force ghost looking for something else to possess.
Being a force ghost would probably imply that he died, which hasn't been the case, unless you can provide a source claiming otherwise.

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It's extremely obvious that Darth Marr is going to take the forefront for a while.
Not entirely relevant to the discussion I'd say.

- - - -

Either way, I think we're going in circles. I've provided a link where Hall Hood says that the Emperor's fate is unclear yet people insist that he once said that the Emperor is dead... For the sake of having a balanced and interesting debate, it would be nice if anyone could provide a link for that. Saying it ad infinitum won't make it true.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.21.2013 , 03:35 AM | #27
How can there be any misinterpreting the following: "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.? And that is quoted word for word. You accuse me of ignoring what the Hands are saying, you accuse me of distorting evidence were I find it convenient. Yet you are ignoring what Hall Hood says above because I can't provide a link, instead you are passing it of as me misunderstanding what he said because it doesn't fit in with your particular theory. How is there any difference? The podcast unfortunately is no longer avaliable, and we can't do anything about that - sorry.

P.S. The Hands have provided no proof that the Emperor is alive, they have not brought us to see him in his slumber, we are therefore not entitled to believe them. In-game characters can lie, I'd like to think game developers don't lie to us.

P.P.S. Hall Hood says the fate of the Emperor is unclear, yet you stubbornly refuse to allow me to disagree when you say the Emperor is definitely and most certainly alive and that is an indisputable fact. Why can't we just have this debate?

SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
04.21.2013 , 06:27 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You seem to be treating me as if I'm some kind of politician, and have a vested interest in believing the Emperor is dead and will therefore fabricate material to make it look like this is the case. I do not, its just what I believe given the material I have been presented with. I'm perfectly happy to change my mind, yet nothing has really convinced me.

This is the way I see it:

The Hand's say the Emperor is dead. They give me no proof, they have reasons to lie, I therefore do not believe them. If the Emperor, in game, came right up to me and said 'I'm alive' then I'd change my mind and it would be illogical to disagree. In that case the game would be telling me the Emperor is alive. However in this case, in-game characters are telling me the Emperor is alive, and providing no proof - big difference. I do not have to believe them.

Especially since Darth Marr has told me that the Emperor is dead, and so has Hall Hood, pretty definitively. I didn't find any evidence of what you said in that video either I'm afraid, perhaps I missed it.

I'm not saying it is the case, but it is a possibility. And if it was the case it wouldn't raise any glaring errors or plot holes but rather correct and fill them.
Ok so let's assume that his interview that you can't find anymore happened. Hall Hood did state in that video that you where talking about that the fate of the Emperor is unclear. Isn't it possible that Hall Hood stating that the Emperor was dead was out of his opinion that he was dead as he worked on the Jedi Knight Story? Isn't it further possible that he was unaware of what the story of the Sith Warrior was and that he at the time of that interview was unaware of the actual fate of the Emperor? And Darth Marr didn't state that the Emperor is dead but that he hasn't been seen and is assumed to be dead or dying. What the leaders of the Republic are stating could be explained as propaganda, in other words they are promoting a news story that best helps the moral of their side. And as to your statement that the Hands are lying because it suits them? HUH? Where do you get that? Without someone in the leadership role of the Emperor, then the Empire is weaker, and they will get killed by the Republic. I don't think that dying is in their best interests.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.21.2013 , 07:14 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
Ok so let's assume that his interview that you can't find anymore happened. Hall Hood did state in that video that you where talking about that the fate of the Emperor is unclear. Isn't it possible that Hall Hood stating that the Emperor was dead was out of his opinion that he was dead as he worked on the Jedi Knight Story? Isn't it further possible that he was unaware of what the story of the Sith Warrior was and that he at the time of that interview was unaware of the actual fate of the Emperor? And Darth Marr didn't state that the Emperor is dead but that he hasn't been seen and is assumed to be dead or dying. What the leaders of the Republic are stating could be explained as propaganda, in other words they are promoting a news story that best helps the moral of their side. And as to your statement that the Hands are lying because it suits them? HUH? Where do you get that? Without someone in the leadership role of the Emperor, then the Empire is weaker, and they will get killed by the Republic. I don't think that dying is in their best interests.
Hall Hood is currently the Lead Writer and SWTOR and he wrote the Jedi Knight story, so I wouldn't pass it off as speculation, especially as he has control over where the story goes next. However I'm also aware that different stories are actually more separate than you would expect. However given that he is the Lead Writer, that he works at BioWare and likely has played all the classes, I'd say he is very much aware of the email

Also, Darth Marr pretty much says the Emperor is dead. The dialogue is as follows:

Governor Saresh: The Sith Emperor is dead

Satele Shan: A Jedi strike team confronted the Emperor during a recent attack on Dromund Kaas. Now a joint SIS and Jedi committee has concluded that the galaxy's greatest villain is gone forever.

....

Darth Marr: They speak truth. The Emperor is gone, dying if not dead, no matter what our propagandists say. He will not be mourned.

Your Character: You say the Emperor is gone, what happened to him?

Darth Marr: A Jedi struck him down; he is not mortal as we are, but he no longer speaks to the council.


Darth Marr believes the Emperor is dead, and confirms what the Republic is saying. And what he said pretty much mirrors what Hood said in his interview with TOR wars. Like Marr, Hood said that the Emperor was struck down by the Jedi Knight on Dromund Kaas. He went on to say that this may not be the first time the Emperor has died, and that he may exist in some sort of spiritual form. This would support what Marr says as the Emperor being 'not mortal as we are'. Hood also says that the fate of the Emperor is unclear, which is pretty much what he says in the previous interview. The Emperor may be dead in bodily form, but that does not mean he's gone forever, his final fate is very much uncertain. So really the statements do not contradict one another. Also concerning the link, unforunately the podcast is no longer avaliable and all get is this. It sucks and I'd love to get around it, but I can't.

What the Republic says is of course propaganda, but the finale of the JK story would suggest they believe it. And as for the Hand's lying, they would do so for exactly the reason you said. So perhaps you misread of misunderstood me. Without an Emperor to lead them, the Empire is in trouble. So in the instance that the Emperor were to die, it would be in the Hand's best interests to fabricate a story explaining his sudden disappearance, rather announce to the entire Empire that he is dead - which would not be good for morale, not good at all.

Nonetheless until the game actually definitely proves to us that the Emperor is dead or alive. We can only speculate.

What's more, in-game character statements aren't the be all and end all. Especially given the fact that this game isn't even finished yet. For example in KOTOR you are told you are a regular soldier, then it turns out that your Revan.

P.S. This isn't directed at you but I find it strange that people can say: "You can't dispute what the Hands tell you" yet are perfectly happy to say the Governor Saresh wasn't telling the truth when she said "The Sith Emperor is dead." Its clear we can't take everything for face value and believe it just because its been said.

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
04.21.2013 , 12:54 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
How can there be any misinterpreting the following: "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.?
And where was that stated by the game's developers or within the game?

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And that is quoted word for word. You accuse me of ignoring what the Hands are saying, you accuse me of distorting evidence were I find it convenient.
I'm not the only one truth be told.

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Yet you are ignoring what Hall Hood says above because I can't provide a link, instead you are passing it of as me misunderstanding what he said because it doesn't fit in with your particular theory.
My theory is backed up by info currently present in the game. Yours is not. Period.

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How is there any difference? The podcast unfortunately is no longer avaliable, and we can't do anything about that - sorry.
We can simply ignore your theory altogether, since unfortunately for you, you have no data whatsoever to back it up. As simple as that. We can walk around in circles all day yet in the end, that's the truth of it.

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P.S. The Hands have provided no proof that the Emperor is alive, they have not brought us to see him in his slumber, we are therefore not entitled to believe them. In-game characters can lie, I'd like to think game developers don't lie to us.
Yet the same does not apply to Saresh, Satele and Marr then? Again, you keep twisting what the game tells you, whenever it suits your needs.

As far as sources go, the Emperor's Hand is far more reliable than Saresh, Marr or Satele, for more than obvious reasons. Marr himself states that the Emperor had been silent for many years, as was his prerogative... Yet, as far as I can remember, you get to speak to him as his Wrath, thanks to the Hand, who provided a location for the Voice.

I ask again... Who's more likely lying, if you want to put it that way?

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P.P.S. Hall Hood says the fate of the Emperor is unclear, yet you stubbornly refuse to allow me to disagree when you say the Emperor is definitely and most certainly alive and that is an indisputable fact. Why can't we just have this debate?[/COLOR]
[

As I've stated a million times before, the most reliable source in the game says that the Emperor, altough weakened, is alive and even before that, they did say that the Dark Council runs blind and only the Hand knows the Emperor's true motives.

Marr, on the other hand, was apparently even willing to recognize Baras' as the Emperor's Voice, most likely because it suited his needs... I find it ironic that you apparently defend his character yet fail to address this character flaw of his, even when the game clearly states that the Emperor was alive and well back then and that Baras was not the voice; I honestly doubt Vorawn was the only one who realized.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Hall Hood is currently the Lead Writer and SWTOR and he wrote the Jedi Knight story, so I wouldn't pass it off as speculation, especially as he has control over where the story goes next.
As a matter of fact, the storyline was written by him and Drew Karpyshyn. Hall Hood was also too busy writing stuff for the Smuggler storyline and that's info currently available on the site. Again, you choose to disregard and / or ignore information whenever you find it convenient. Definately not a first...

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However I'm also aware that different stories are actually more separate than you would expect. However given that he is the Lead Writer, that he works at BioWare and likely has played all the classes, I'd say he is very much aware of the email.
I don't question that nor, unlike some, question the validity of said e-mail.

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Also, Darth Marr pretty much says the Emperor is dead. The dialogue is as follows:

Governor Saresh: The Sith Emperor is dead

Satele Shan: A Jedi strike team confronted the Emperor during a recent attack on Dromund Kaas. Now a joint SIS and Jedi committee has concluded that the galaxy's greatest villain is gone forever.

....

Darth Marr: They speak truth. The Emperor is gone, dying if not dead, no matter what our propagandists say. He will not be mourned.

Your Character: You say the Emperor is gone, what happened to him?

Darth Marr: A Jedi struck him down; he is not mortal as we are, but he no longer speaks to the council.
I'm not sure this is even worth discussing... How is it you can find far more reliable the findings of Satele and Saresh, against the Emperor's Hand? Does this even make any sense at all?

Also, as I've mentioned repeatedly, the Emperor had been silent for many years and didn't speak with the Council for ages, as said by the Emperor's Hand. Again, glad to see you keep ignoring stuff whenever you find it convenient.

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Darth Marr believes the Emperor is dead, and confirms what the Republic is saying. And what he said pretty much mirrors what Hood said in his interview with TOR wars. Like Marr, Hood said that the Emperor was struck down by the Jedi Knight on Dromund Kaas. He went on to say that this may not be the first time the Emperor has died, and that he may exist in some sort of spiritual form. This would support what Marr says as the Emperor being 'not mortal as we are'. Hood also says that the fate of the Emperor is unclear, which is pretty much what he says in the previous interview. The Emperor may be dead in bodily form, but that does not mean he's gone forever, his final fate is very much uncertain. So really the statements do not contradict one another. Also concerning the link, unforunately the podcast is no longer avaliable and all get is this. It sucks and I'd love to get around it, but I can't.
Wanna know a secret? I'm actually the Emperor in disguise but since I don't have a link to back it up, I'll just ask you to take my word for it. Seems doable, given your approach to "facts" and what's necessary to back them up.

For the rest, look above for what I said already.

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What the Republic says is of course propaganda, but the finale of the JK story would suggest they believe it. And as for the Hand's lying, they would do so for exactly the reason you said. So perhaps you misread of misunderstood me. Without an Emperor to lead them, the Empire is in trouble. So in the instance that the Emperor were to die, it would be in the Hand's best interests to fabricate a story explaining his sudden disappearance, rather announce to the entire Empire that he is dead - which would not be good for morale, not good at all.
It would suggest they believe because - and I'm only assuming(!!!) here - the Emperor's Hand didn't send the mail to the Jedi Council and the Wrath but ONLY to the latter.

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Nonetheless until the game actually definitely proves to us that the Emperor is dead or alive. We can only speculate.
Not really, since in this case, the Dark Council keeps running blind, Darth Marr has his agenda, having in mind he was apparently willing to support Baras as the Voice, there's the mail which, YET AGAIN, I'm going to assume did not make his way to the Jedi Council.

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What's more, in-game character statements aren't the be all and end all. Especially given the fact that this game isn't even finished yet. For example in KOTOR you are told you are a regular soldier, then it turns out that your Revan.
Now you're clutching at straws no doubt.

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P.S. This isn't directed at you but I find it strange that people can say: "You can't dispute what the Hands tell you" yet are perfectly happy to say the Governor Saresh wasn't telling the truth when she said "The Sith Emperor is dead." Its clear we can't take everything for face value and believe it just because its been said.[/COLOR]
She reported the findings of a committee. That was it, nothing more. There's info in the game that would prove otherwise, info that as you know, she doesn't have access to. Why you insist on ignoring such a simple fact is beyond me.