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Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
09.19.2013 , 05:24 AM | #331
Actually, something just occured to me.

Vitiate was The Emperors Sith name. Once the ritual was completed that made Vitiate into the Emperor, he dropped the name Vitiate. Therefore, Vitiate refers to The Emperor pre-ritual
Meanwhile, Palpatine went by Palpatine until death, only occasionally using the name Sidious.

This means that The Emperor = Palpatine > Vitiate
But since we are only comparing Palpatine to Vitiate, its Palpatine > Vitiate
There we go, I settled it.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.19.2013 , 05:59 AM | #332
Quote: Originally Posted by TACeMossie View Post
My point came across wrong. What I was saying as that a majority of the achievements were relative to the general skill of the average force user of the time. If the Old Republic Era had stronger force users, then Vitiate's achievements were more impressive. But if the Clone Wars had stronger force users, then Palpatines achievements were more impressive.

e.g. Vitiates Ritual required that Vitiate, at his least powerful for thousands of years, had to bind the will of 8000 sith lords to his own. Mental Domination of 8000 of the strongest sith the empire had to offer. And afterwards, their power was added to his own, as well as even the tiniest amount of force potential from everything else on the planet. If the sith lords together could beat Mace, and Mace was able to best Palpatine until Anakin chopped his hand off, then what does that say about how much more powerful Vitiate would be vs Palpatine?
I recognize your point, but what I'm saying is that their is no need to judge Jedi Orders collectively - which I regard as equal - when we have the information at hand to directly compare individuals such as Revan, Windu, Fisto, Meetra etc. Regardless Sidious' perfomance against the Jedi Council is far from his most impressive of feats.

Concerning the Nathema ritual, there are a few vital points that we have to take into account here:

  1. The Sith Lords that the Sith Emperor dominated were dominated willing, they wished to partake in the ritual which made their minds more susceptible to assault. Much like Kaan was able to take control of the minds of his followers when enacting the Force bomb ritual. And Kaan pales in comparison to the Sith Emperor.

  2. The mental domination was a product of Sith Magic, in particular Q‚zoi Kyantuska - a power that has been replicated (albeit on a lesser level) by the most rudimentary and inexperienced of sorcerers. Essentially it does not require a great deal of raw power to perform, but rather a deep level of understanding.

  3. The ritual clearly did not literally increase the Sith Emperor's Force ability by the sum of 8,000 Sith, else he would have effortlessly defeated the likes of Revan and the HoT. Instead we can only assume that energy was expended in the performance of the ritual itself, and used to sustain the Sith Emperor's longevity.

And in the end, there is no need to speculate on how powerful said ritual may have made the Sith Emperor. For we possess enough feats to compare with Sidious' to know that he still falls short of Palpatine's power.

P.S. The only reason Windu was able to face Sidious in combat was thanks to Vaapad which he used to siphon the Sith Lord's power and use it against him. In reality Sidious is a considerably more powerful Force user.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
09.19.2013 , 06:41 AM | #333
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
All the evidence you require is located in the OP. Simply put, Sidious surpasses the Sith Emperor's power in almost every field with the exception of Sith Magic. However we cannot hold this against Sidious as the ability to wield such power is an innate talent, a talent that some - such as Sidious - simply do not possess. But this does not make them any less powerful. The Force storm in itself, the pinnacle of dark side mastery, alone is enough to secure his position.

And you'll find any and all attempts to make Sidious' power look "pathetic" will collapse under scrutiny. For example Windu's Force abilities surpass practically every Jedi in the Old Republic era and more than challenge the prowess of the NJO era. And his development of Vaapad took lightsaber combat to a whole new level. Kit Fisto is also a considerably powerful Force user in comparison to other eras.

And finally, you seem to be confusing Force abilities with achievements in general. This thread is not for the discussion of who had the bigger empire, or whose plans were more successful, but who was more powerful in the Force.

P.S. If you really want to compare the Sith Emperor to other exceptionally powerful Force users, then look to Darth Caedus. Who is more on the Sith Emperor's level. Though you'll find the general consensus is that Caedus is stronger.
Actually Beni, Sidious is quite well varied in regards to Sith Magic. Creating Sith Spawn, making Force Nexus(making one of the strongest ones in the galaxy), haunting dreams, implanting dreams, giving people a portion of power to make Dark side adepts, influencing Jedi emotions across the galaxy etc
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.19.2013 , 07:01 AM | #334
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Actually Beni, Sidious is quite well varied in regards to Sith Magic. Creating Sith Spawn, making Force Nexus(making one of the strongest ones in the galaxy), haunting dreams, implanting dreams, giving people a portion of power to make Dark side adepts, influencing Jedi emotions across the galaxy etc
I wouldn't say any of those were the product of Sith Magic, but Alchemy. And I'm not sure they are one and the same.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
09.19.2013 , 07:29 AM | #335
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I wouldn't say any of those were the product of Sith Magic, but Alchemy. And I'm not sure they are one and the same.
Well ok the making of the Sith Spawn and influencing Jedi emotions were the result of both Alchemy(former) and Magic(latter) at the same time. Though it is noted that he caused anxiety within the Jedi through Sith rituals. The nexus was of him drawing his energy onto the planet. The dream thing was the same and so forth. Though it seems to me that both would be one and the same really, the Magic being used to make things with Alchemy(the Sith Spawn/Influencing the Jedi, the Spawn was the result of all that).
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.19.2013 , 07:37 AM | #336
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Well ok the making of the Sith Spawn and influencing Jedi emotions were the result of both Alchemy(former) and Magic(latter) at the same time. Though it is noted that he caused anxiety within the Jedi through Sith rituals. The nexus was of him drawing his energy onto the planet. The dream thing was the same and so forth. Though it seems to me that both would be one and the same really, the Magic being used to make things with Alchemy(the Sith Spawn/Influencing the Jedi, the Spawn was the result of all that).
Well *shrug* we can at least say that Sidious did not possess the same level of affinity for Sith Magic as Vitiate.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
09.19.2013 , 07:41 AM | #337
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[COLOR=#CC9E42Well *shrug* we can at least say that Sidious did not possess the same level of affinity for Sith Magic as Vitiate.[/COLOR]
Perhaps not(though making a nexus is impressive), but just throwing that out there to show Sid does know.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
03.13.2014 , 06:04 AM | #338
Quote: Originally Posted by TACeMossie View Post
This means that The Emperor = Palpatine > Vitiate
But since we are only comparing Palpatine to Vitiate, its Palpatine > Vitiate
There we go, I settled it.
It's actually the Emperor>Palpatine>Vitiate

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
03.13.2014 , 10:18 AM | #339
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
It's actually the Emperor>Palpatine>Vitiate
It's actually Luke > Palpatine >>>>>> All
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

skarlson's Avatar


skarlson
03.13.2014 , 10:50 AM | #340
Impressive original post but pointless as is the discussion. At least some, if not all, of the sources mentioned have been revised. In at least one instance off the top of my head the statement regarding Palpatine's power was revised from the most powerful sith lord ever to ONE of the most powerful sith lord's ever. The point here is the chronology is constantly evolving so there really is no good way to say this one or that one was most powerful. Sorry Sidious fanbois.
"Unlimited powahahaha! I can't say it..." -Darth Sidious as a Sorcerer