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Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
04.16.2013 , 03:37 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Swissbob View Post
Well, I'm not knowledgeable enough, and don't have enough time right now anyway.

But you misunderstand. I don't have to provide a list to validate what I'm saying because I'm not really arguing on behalf of Vitiate. I'm not trying to "prove" that Vitiate is better. I'm not trying to convince anyone that Vitiate is the "better" Sith. While I would usually take his side instead of Palpatine's that's not what I'm trying to do here.

The messages I've been trying to get across are:

1: I thoroughly enjoyed your post! It was well written and helped me better appreciate Sidious.

2: However, this post/thread should not be and probably is not the be-all end-all of the debate. Just because you provided a huge list of Palpatine's achievements does not automatically put the debate to rest. I don't think you can say "Enough. Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine" just because you provided a list (no matter how long, impressive or awesome it is ) .

So, I'm not trying to prove who is the "better" Sith.

I'm trying to keep the discussion/debate/comparison going.
I know you are, but it would help to compare so people could see. But if you don't have the info, then that is fine.
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Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.16.2013 , 04:21 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
Hmmm... What was the Sun Razer then? The Gauntlet, the Emperor's Shadow, the Ascendant Spear, The Silencer and The Undying...?! Didn't get to read Lost Suns, did you?

EDIT:

Also, grats on the fact that you ignored the 1300 years of existence Vitiate was able to achieve, unlike Sidious, something that even his master, Darth Plagueis, kinda envied.
No I didn't, but I'm not impressed by those 'superweapons'

When you can show me planet destroying superweapons, then you can get back to me.

And also, living 1300 years is all he has on Palpatine. But I still don't see how that makes him so special. He accomplished it through a ritual. Palpatine's spirit was immortal through his own power.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
04.16.2013 , 04:35 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
No I didn't, but I'm not impressed by those 'superweapons'
Doesn't matter if you're impressed or not. They exist and at least one of them is actually quite relevant for one of the storylines and the end of the Treaty of Coruscant.

Quote:
When you can show me planet destroying superweapons, then you can get back to me.
I already did. You just chose to ignore it, since it doesn't fit with your grasping of things in the SW Universe.

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And also, living 1300 years is all he has on Palpatine.
Which is a small feat, right? Not impressive... At all.

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But I still don't see how that makes him so special.
It makes him special because no other was able to achieve it. Simple.

Quote:
He accomplished it through a ritual. Palpatine's spirit was immortal through his own power.
I assume what Palpatine achieved wasn't in any way related to his hold over the Dark Side of the Force then? Just like Vitiate? No offense, but right now, you're just being silly, arguing for the sake of arguing and not bringing anything new to the table. Concede defeat and move on, please.
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Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.16.2013 , 04:45 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
Doesn't matter if you're impressed or not. They exist and at least one of them is actually quite relevant for one of the storylines and the end of the Treaty of Coruscant.
I am aware of them, and I did not deny their existence. However, you seem to be of the opinion that the Sith Empire's Superweapons make it better than the Galactic Empire, even though I can show evidence of the Galactic Empire having more of them.

Quote:
I already did. You just chose to ignore it, since it doesn't fit with your grasping of things in the SW Universe.
Which one was it? (honest question)

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Which is a small feat, right? Not impressive... At all.
It is impressive that he lived for so long. But then again, we don't see obsessive fanboyism over Odan-Urr, Ood Bnar, and Yoda.

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It makes him special because no other was able to achieve it. Simple.
Ood Bnar lived far longer than Vitiate.

Quote:
I assume what Palpatine achieved wasn't in any way related to his hold over the Dark Side of the Force then? Just like Vitiate? No offense, but right now, you're just being silly, arguing for the sake of arguing and not bringing anything new to the table. Concede defeat and move on, please.
Concede defeat? You're seem pretty upset, don't you. I would provide further evidence to prove the Galactic Empire's superiority, but it simply doesn't matter for two reasons. One: You'll simply ignore it and say something like 'Vitiate's rule was longer!' or some such. Two: It doesn't really fit for this discussion. This isn't about Empires. This is about individual characters.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Doctoglethorpe's Avatar


Doctoglethorpe
04.16.2013 , 05:51 PM | #25
Vitiate really ain't all that great. He's very far reaching, which allows him to be a great manipulator and "manager" but his personal strength is almost non existent. He relies on puppets and proxies to do literally everything. Thats a major Achilles' heel. He has no voice right now, which leaves him especially weakened. Without it, he has no direct way of fending off an attempt at his life, he can only guide his servants to defend his corporeal vessel, and really the Wrath is the only one he has thats capable of doing all that much against something like a council mutiny or another direct assault by the Jedi. The Hands serve more of a cleric role and the royal guard are just glorified henchmen. Powerful henchmen but no dark lords. So take out the Wrath and Vitiate is pretty much just a sack of water waiting to be ended.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
04.16.2013 , 05:56 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
I assume what Palpatine achieved wasn't in any way related to his hold over the Dark Side of the Force then? Just like Vitiate? No offense, but right now, you're just being silly, arguing for the sake of arguing and not bringing anything new to the table. Concede defeat and move on, please.
The fanboy is strong with this one.
Everything aubere has posted so far, from my view, has been not only on topic, but relevant, and brought new info to the table.
If anyone's being "silly" and refusing to "Concede defeat and move on" it's you.
/endrant
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marcelo_sdk's Avatar


marcelo_sdk
04.16.2013 , 06:24 PM | #27
Darth_Wicked, c'mon man, we'r having a high level debate here. Nothing wrong about defending your point (wich is pretty same as mine), just don't disrespect the others point of view. That said, let's get back to the topic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doctoglethorpe View Post
Vitiate really ain't all that great. He's very far reaching, which allows him to be a great manipulator and "manager" but his personal strength is almost non existent. He relies on puppets and proxies to do literally everything. Thats a major Achilles' heel. He has no voice right now, which leaves him especially weakened. Without it, he has no direct way of fending off an attempt at his life, he can only guide his servants to defend his corporeal vessel, and really the Wrath is the only one he has thats capable of doing all that much against something like a council mutiny or another direct assault by the Jedi. The Hands serve more of a cleric role and the royal guard are just glorified henchmen. Powerful henchmen but no dark lords. So take out the Wrath and Vitiate is pretty much just a sack of water waiting to be ended.
Man, I couldn't disagree more with almost everything you said. First, how can you say his personal strength was almost non existent? I'm sure even Sidious's "team" will agree that's just absurd. He personally defeated Revan, the most powerful Jedi of his time.

Yes, he relies puppets and proxies, yes, and Sidious doesn't? Also, Vtiate is vulnerable right now, yes, but so was Palpatine after he was defeated above Endor. If anyone had found his clone facilities, he would be over. He was indeed in a sack of water waiting to be ended.

About being defended "just" by the Royal Guard and the Wrath with "no" true Sith Lords. Well, the Wrath, which is a Sith Lord, was probably the most powerful Sith of the time, with perhaps just the Hero of Tython as his match. And you forget that he had the entire Dark Council, wich was compposed of what, 4 Lords? If it's about numbers, Palpatine was defended by only one Sith Lord. That argument just don't give any advantage to either side.
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Callaron's Avatar


Callaron
04.16.2013 , 07:10 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post

Which one was it? (honest question)
Spoiler

Can't remember the name though.
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xxwolfbloodxx's Avatar


xxwolfbloodxx
04.16.2013 , 07:26 PM | #29
I agree that Sidious was stronger than Vitiate but i dont understand why people are talking down his accomplishments.
Ok whoopie, Vitiate lived for 1,300 years....one accomplishment(which really is only given, due to the fact nothing was really going on during that time period) doesn't mean that Vitiate is Sidious' superior.[/QUOTE]

He lived for 1,300 years at a time when there was thounsands upon thousands of sith lords all fighting for power. Most of them were trained in the dark side since childhood. But for 1,300 years not one of these thousand of sith lords trained in the dark side form childhood could even come close to Vitate's power.
I dont think there has been another sith lord that has had so many riivels and ruled for so long. Vitate was not just the most powerful sith lord of a generation but the most powerful sith lord for sevreal generations in time with so many sith lords that were trained in the dark side from childhood. I think that the fact that he ruled so long shows how powerful he was.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.16.2013 , 07:37 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Callaron View Post
Spoiler

Can't remember the name though.
Spoiler


But I was referring more to actual planet destruction like Alderaan.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."