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Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.15.2013 , 04:51 AM | #261
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
Seriously, bro, stop promoting/spreading invincibility myth about characters such as Yoda, Luke and Sidious. All of them can win or loose against TOR era elites depending upon various factors and their own strengths and weaknesses. You loose credibility, if you think otherwise.

Terms such as "most powerful" are promotion tactics used by authors to convey to readers that the affiliated characters are not to be underestimated in the light of the whole mythos. This is it. FULL STOP.

Never would any author stubbornly insist that his/her creation is unbeatable or such. End of argument.
Please, point me to a statement made by myself that says anything about this. Right now.

Really, this is just pathetic. Don't lower yourself to the level of the other trolls on this thread.

And no, I don't believe any of this is true.

And seriously, how can you stand there and say 'most powerful' is just a promotion tactic and then go and use it as an argument against us, do you realise how hypocritical that is?

The only person who needs to stop with this ridiculous charade is you. Don't bother replying, good day.

pan_sObak's Avatar


pan_sObak
07.15.2013 , 06:11 AM | #262
Quote: Originally Posted by xxwolfbloodxx View Post
He lived for 1,300 years at a time when there was thounsands upon thousands of sith lords all fighting for power. Most of them were trained in the dark side since childhood. But for 1,300 years not one of these thousand of sith lords trained in the dark side form childhood could even come close to Vitate's power.
And Sidious did not manage to overcome (both physically and fully conquering his mind) at last one crippled sith Vader :-)
Tomb of Freedon Nadd, Pansobak Legacy
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S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
07.15.2013 , 02:10 PM | #263
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
S_W_Legend, your getting the completely wrong idea here.

For me, G-Canon is always secondary. Whenever someone makes the statement that the Sith Emperor is more powerful than Sidious I direct them to the myriad of feats that Sidious had performed over his life-time, and that Sidious surpasses the Sith Emperor in anything other than his knowledge of Sith Sorcery - which in turn owes much to an innate ability. Take a moment to comb this entire thread and you'll notice that before your entrance, I never mentioned G-Canon as an argument once. Yes still am referred to as a 'George Lucas fanboy'.
Beni, I have noticed you pulling out G-canon card in your debates for favoring Sidious numerous times in different threads. At least, be honest about your own debating history.

Your assumption is misplaced if you believe that Sidious surpassed Sith Emperor in everything barring Sith Sorcery. Sith Emperor have demonstrated extreme proficiency in conventional aspects of the Force such as Force Drain (he siphoned energies from countless souls/individuals on multiple planets simultaneously), Sith lightning (he could overwhelm even the strongest Jedi with this talent), Telepathic abilities (he could break even the strongest Jedi and simultaneously controlled thousands of individuals from lightyear distances with this talent) and telekinetic applications (he was capable of collapsing buildings, nearly atomize metal, perform telekinetic feats without gestures). Full extent of his abilities are actually unknown. Heck, Sith Emperor prevented his original body and even avatars from negative effects (accelerated aging/decay) of dark side practices in comparison to Sidious who couldn't do the same to his clones.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
No, it is you who are bringing the canon system into this. And I'm not even talking about G-Canon here because as far as I'm now aware those statements aren't even G-Canon, they are just canon. However you are telling us to disregard them on the sole basis that they are outdated, yet none of those particular texts have been superseded.
Beni, I didn't brought canon system on my own; http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...626813&page=17

Many debaters rely upon canon system to lend credibility to their arguments so it is natural for me to respond in kind.

Also, it is good to note some flexibility in your opinion in this regard.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
So yes, if someone decides they can make up there own rules about the canon system, I will defend it. Because as far as I'm aware those statements pertaining to Sidious are valid until prove otherwise. Regardless of age, those books have not been replaced, and they have not been rendered non-canon.

They are still canon, simple as. We are not at liberty to decide what is valid and what is not, that is up to George Lucas, Leland Chee, and Disney - none of which neither you or I represent.
Nobody is making any rules about canon system here! My point is to respect canon in its entirety. You focus on black and white concepts and not on the grey concepts of canon. Retcons and/or contradictions are frequent occurrences in a lore which is continuously expanding and have lot of authors contributing to it. It is up to us (fans) to make sense of it all instead of being selective in our debates. Several top tier dark side masters have registered their attendance in the mythos thus far. Debating about who is strongest among them is not easy and rather an exhausting exercise. When you are so powerful; you can hold your own against any opponent, if well prepared. It doesn't matters who secures the top spot in this kind of scenario. Simple.

By the way, Lucas doesn't bothers with "most powerful" declarations in EU and neither he overrules them officially at personal capacity.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
As far as I'm concerned, any statements made in reference to the Sith Emperor are only valid up until the era in which the Sith Emperor exists. Not after. And as far as I'm concerned being able to dispatch multiple storms of pure dark side energy across the very fabric of space with the capability of destroying armies, fleets and entire planets, at a moments notice, unassisted. is greater than being able to drain the life forms of an entire planet over the course of ten days with the help of 8,000 Sith Lords - taking into account the fact that Sidious is capable of a planet-wide Force drain himself. And don't tell me that he could do it without aid after consuming their essences, else he wouldn't have dispatched his minions to take out a bunch of other planets.
That ritual lasted 10 days but the power was released on moments notice and Tenebrae controlled it right on the spot; his transformation didn't took 10 days. After this transformation, Tenebrae had galactic reach with his Force abilities. As explained above:

- Sith Emperor simultaneously siphoned energies from souls of countless beings trapped in the void of Nathema, many individuals on Dromund Kaas and also Revan trapped in another region. All of these locations are many lightywears apart from each other.

- Sith Emperor simultaneously controlled his children who were deployed in many worlds under Republic control with his telepathic abilities; another indication of his powers having galactic reach. Sith Emperor could activate his children in any part of the Galaxy with sheer force of his will whenever he wished to do so.

- Sith Emperor manipulated the weather of Dromund Kaas on planetary scale and continuously.

- Sith Emperor eventually acquired the capability to control dark side power of galactic proportions to complete his final transformation (ultimate plan). Also, Sith Sorcery based powers are among the most destructive and lethal in the mythos and controlling such powers is indication of remarkable strength and affinity with the dark side.

- Combat wise, he had answer for any kind of threat under fair circumstances and/or when prepared. His Sith Sorcery talent granted him lot of options in this regard.

As far as timeline is concerned, this is lame argument. You think that Sidious had no equal during his era? Dark side masters such as The Son and Abeloth existed during his time as well. In addition, their have been other extremely powerful entities that have existed for a very long time. Sidious could be the most powerful among the followers of Sith philosophy among the dark side practitioners but individuals such as Nihilus and Tenebrae abandoned this track. So you need to focus on grey shades of canonical developments and not just stick to old (outdated) views/canonical revelations. Understand?

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And as far as I'm concerned, being more powerful than Sidious is just plain silly. I'm going to assume that the EU is not so susceptible to petty one-upmanship. Sidious is top-dog, and deserves to be, deal with it.

Simpy put, when I look at the Sith Emperor, I don't see a being more powerful than Sidious. And there are no canon statements that compel me to believe so. You can rail against me all you like but in the end the rules do not dictate that statements regarding the Sith Emperor outrank those regarding Sidious. Out-of-universe timescales are irrelevant.
I am not outright declaring who is strongest; I am open to possibilities. However, I believe that Sith Emperor does have credentials to be on the top or up with the top Force-users and my belief is based on merit.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Please, point me to a statement made by myself that says anything about this. Right now.
Your arguments are always in favor of Yoda, Sidious and Luke; when these characters are involved in a debate, they automatically win.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651297

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651536

Here is a gem:

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
In this case its more than just quotes. Quotes like 'the dark side of the Force is a cancer' I take with a heavy heaping of salt because he says the opposite the next day.

However this notion is imprinted in just about every source book that makes mention of him, and accepted by every author who writes about him and likely those that don't. So it is G-Canon in a strong sense. And the very notion of G-Canon is basically telling us: take these comments seriously.

But I, personally, would not want to see an EU character become more powerful than Sidious. That for me would be the line, the moment were the EU has grown to corpulent and sure of itself. That's the point where it needs to be shot. Forgive the dramatism but what I'm saying here is that the EU need to respect the original concept of Star Wars.

Sidious is the pinnacle of the Rule of Two, the only Sith in the history of the galaxy who has succeeded in destroying the Jedi. He is evil incarnate and a symbol of the darkside in the movies. So, he cannot help but be the most powerful Sith ever. To have another more powerful than him would suggest they are more evil than him and in turn degrade his character and the symbol he represents as a whole and that in turn would degrade the whole original trilogy.
Taken from this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...=649417&page=2

Please keep in mind that Sidious isn't the only Sith Lord in the history to nearly destroy the Jedi Order. This have happened before during Old Republic era.

And I am surprised by your assumption that a powerful Dark Side Master would devalue Sidious. Seriously?

I am certain that their is more...

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Really, this is just pathetic. Don't lower yourself to the level of the other trolls on this thread.

And no, I don't believe any of this is true.
You are denying your own claims?

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And seriously, how can you stand there and say 'most powerful' is just a promotion tactic and then go and use it as an argument against us, do you realise how hypocritical that is?
My point is about artistic license; Star Wars saga isn't supposed to promote only Sidious as the top dog among the dark side practitioners of the mythos. "Most powerful" accolade is not exclusive for Sidious for a reason; several other characters have received this accolade as part of their official representation in the mythos. Now who is stronger then who is a matter of interpretation and perspective; in case of some characters, it is easier to determine who is stronger then who (Examples: Sidious > Plagueis; Abeloth > The Son) but not with every character. I advocate TIER based ranking over selective ranking due to this reason; it minimizes arguments in these kind of topics/debates.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The only person who needs to stop with this ridiculous charade is you. Don't bother replying, good day.
Do I need your permission to reply, Beni? This is a public forum where every member have the right to voice his/her opinion. Take it easy and address the concerns at hand.

EicyLightrider's Avatar


EicyLightrider
07.16.2013 , 07:17 PM | #264
Bravo! Wonderfully and eloquently stated.
ii████ii!!ii███████████████) JawaP*n*s

Heathenblood's Avatar


Heathenblood
07.19.2013 , 01:52 PM | #265
I've never read any of the books or anything like that so this is just based apon how sidius is in the movies vs how the emperor in the game. And honestly you'd have to know most people have only seen the movies. Not saying your wrong you made perfectly clear points how sidious it stronger, but from people who aren't familiar with the books an only seen the movies then play the storylines in this game they make vitiate look way stronger than sidious in the movies.

Like how vader wa able to kill sidious so easily I mean vader did sacrifice himself to do it but that shouldn't have even been possible if sidious is the strongest Sith Lord ever. He should of just been able to kill vader with one shock instantly.

And this game makes vitiate basicly invincible he can just take a new host he can't die. You just kill his voice only. And he can just take over people minds so easily. And he can just devour a world of life and get more powerful.
I mean come on even malgus seems more powerful than sidious from the movies.

Again I'm just going off the movies compared this game. But sidious seemed awefully weak in the movies.
-Heathenblood

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
07.20.2013 , 05:44 PM | #266
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
....
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
See I could, but then that would just be bottling it all up which isn't healthy. .
People considering Vitiate being stronger is really bothering you huh? xD
Relax,enjoy swtor and don't bother yourself with these matters..Not everyone shares your view,specially if it is so biased and prejudiced.If someone disagrees with you and your SW world view,it doesn't mean the end of the world.

To add just a little to the debate:
The scenes in the Revan book,when Scourge and later Revan were in Vitiate's pressence and his effect on the enviroment and their perceptions is a clear indicator that Vitiate is beyond anything we have seen so far in Star Wars.

Another reason for you to breath easier is that Vitiate is not exactly a sith lord,he doesn't fit the description fully,so from a certain pov Sidious can still be the most powerful sith lord.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
07.20.2013 , 07:40 PM | #267
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
People considering Vitiate being stronger is really bothering you huh? xD
Relax,enjoy swtor and don't bother yourself with these matters..Not everyone shares your view,specially if it is so biased and prejudiced.If someone disagrees with you and your SW world view,it doesn't mean the end of the world.

To add just a little to the debate:
The scenes in the Revan book,when Scourge and later Revan were in Vitiate's pressence and his effect on the enviroment and their perceptions is a clear indicator that Vitiate is beyond anything we have seen so far in Star Wars.

Another reason for you to breath easier is that Vitiate is not exactly a sith lord,he doesn't fit the description fully,so from a certain pov Sidious can still be the most powerful sith lord.

His view isn't "Biased and prejudiced." His view is correct. Sidious IS the most powerful Sith Lord in history, people only say the emperor is stronger because they like his background story :roll:
Now THAT is biased/Prejudiced...

Another thing is, the Vitiate destroying the strike team... Kk great. Sidious slaughtered three incredibly powerful Jedi within seconds, simply because of his incredible blade work, and the fact they couldn't sense him by precognition...
And that's not even his most powerful feat, just showing that he can do something Vitiate can but better.

Oh. And Sidious literally created a force power. His force storm could destroy fleets, and planets if he tried and wasn't stopped by the Skywalkers.

That's pretty boss indeed
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
07.20.2013 , 08:11 PM | #268
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
People considering Vitiate being stronger is really bothering you huh? xD
Relax,enjoy swtor and don't bother yourself with these matters..Not everyone shares your view,specially if it is so biased and prejudiced.If someone disagrees with you and your SW world view,it doesn't mean the end of the world.

To add just a little to the debate:
The scenes in the Revan book,when Scourge and later Revan were in Vitiate's pressence and his effect on the enviroment and their perceptions is a clear indicator that Vitiate is beyond anything we have seen so far in Star Wars.

Another reason for you to breath easier is that Vitiate is not exactly a sith lord,he doesn't fit the description fully,so from a certain pov Sidious can still be the most powerful sith lord.
Yes...yes of course I am being biased, its not like I haven't used facts to support...well what is fact.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
07.21.2013 , 05:48 AM | #269
You know I'm reading the SWTOR encyclopedia and not seeing a thing about Vitiate being a Dark Side Master or the most powerful Sith or anything of the sort.
"The Empire is war made manifest. That is why it is perfect."
Imperial Order

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
07.21.2013 , 08:29 AM | #270
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Yes...yes of course I am being biased, its not like I haven't used facts to support...well what is fact.
Some of the things you quoted and usually quote were/are not from an actual SW franchise,but outdated encyclopedias and other similar stuff.Fact is something that happened in the SW universe,not a third party work, describing a character.
And this is where it gets interesting,Sidious needs third party works to describe him,while Vitiate on the other hand radiates power from the actual events you see him in.You don't need to read somewhere else that his is this or that.You can figure that out for yourself.