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Thanks Bioware- PvP is looking better!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Thanks Bioware- PvP is looking better!

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
04.18.2013 , 02:28 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Genttry View Post
100 looks and no reply so far. Hit me with your negativity, I don't care. Please make sure we can understand your writing though. I honestly want to know if anyone is hoping/waiting for at least some of the ideas I mentioned earlier. This PvP forum can definitely be more than just a cheese and whine fest. Holla, please give me an idea of where our pvp community stands on the esport issue, et al. FYI- I also support the PvE and leveling-up experience this game has to offer. I'm talking strictly about competitive PvP. Thanks for your replies!
not trying to be negative, but to be honest, it's hard to tell whether or not you're being sarcastic, because the general consensus is that bolster basically killed pvp permanently in this game. Those who are saying that bolster is great are just trolling, in the same way that people say they would love a pve bolster, where you could raid naked or without enhancements or whatever and get BIS pve gear. Funny for a day, yeah, but ultimately sucks any kind of purple out of the game.

MMOs are about the gear grind, plain and simple, if you don't want to gear grind, don't play the game. And if there is no gear grind, MMO players will not play the game.

The E-Sport thing with swtor in a QuakeCon type environment could be cool....but not with this current system. Laughably, games Quake/Call of Duty/etc. are "balanced" and competitive because you can pick up the same weapons and face off against whoever and have a chance. In this game, however, too many Severe class imbalances and WAY too many exploits for it to be ever considered for any kind of professional convention.
Lightsabers, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Jedi Mind Tricks, what else could you want from an MMO? There may be other MMOs out there, but do they have Lightsabers?....Do They?

Once you're in the hole, what's a few more feet?

Genttry's Avatar


Genttry
04.18.2013 , 02:50 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by SomeJagoff View Post
not trying to be negative, but to be honest, it's hard to tell whether or not you're being sarcastic, because the general consensus is that bolster basically killed pvp permanently in this game. Those who are saying that bolster is great are just trolling, in the same way that people say they would love a pve bolster, where you could raid naked or without enhancements or whatever and get BIS pve gear. Funny for a day, yeah, but ultimately sucks any kind of purple out of the game.

MMOs are about the gear grind, plain and simple, if you don't want to gear grind, don't play the game. And if there is no gear grind, MMO players will not play the game.

The E-Sport thing with swtor in a QuakeCon type environment could be cool....but not with this current system. Laughably, games Quake/Call of Duty/etc. are "balanced" and competitive because you can pick up the same weapons and face off against whoever and have a chance. In this game, however, too many Severe class imbalances and WAY too many exploits for it to be ever considered for any kind of professional convention.
Heya Somejagoff (snicker), thanks for the reply. No, I'm not being sarcastic. Somewhere in my long post I mentioned breaking the mold. The novelty I'm talking about is to have an MMO game, with PvE and all, with a viable and competitive and maybe semi-balanced esport component. I play MMOs for the same reasons as many others- for the camarderie, for the fun groups and, for me, the PvP components. I simply posit that perhaps SWTOR hasn't developed a niche market yet. It has a fantastic backdrop of the Star Wars Universe which I and many others love. I think now may be a good time to develop a novel esport component. That's all I am saying. The bolster system, sans bugs and other readily-apparent flaws, feels like a step in the right direction toward a more level playing field.

I honestly don't know how to balance an MMO esport, but WoW has done it, kind of. SWTOR can maybe take that model and improve it. Like i said I still enjoy WoW arenas and have played to gladiator level. I really want SWTOR to succeed. I think the forums are a tough place to present ideas due to so many people trolling (as you mention) and generally being rude, but that was not my intent at all. Thanks for the reply buddy, mucho appreciado!

edit: I agree about the gear grind. However, does there need to be a gear grind for PvP? Maybe an arena mode where bolster kicks in? I don't know, but that's why I ask the question- for ideas.

jtrick's Avatar


jtrick
04.18.2013 , 02:59 AM | #13
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, bolster only goes so far (or at least is supposed to, current bugs notwithstanding).

Isn't there still supposed to be a gear gap? Just one that's not quite so large? While I still want a gear gap, I also think it should be small. There's no reason for the higher tier gear to turn someone into a god. Isn't that boring for everyone? I always thought so. A skilled player should be fine in equal gear, and should be able to turn a small gear advantage into a big advantage in a fight.

Of course if I'm wrong, and now at 55 gear really doesn't matter at all: then yeah, that sucks.

Genttry's Avatar


Genttry
04.18.2013 , 03:04 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by jtrick View Post
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, bolster only goes so far (or at least is supposed to, current bugs notwithstanding).

Isn't there still supposed to be a gear gap? Just one that's not quite so large? While I still want a gear gap, I also think it should be small. There's no reason for the higher tier gear to turn someone into a god. Isn't that boring for everyone? I always thought so. A skilled player should be fine in equal gear, and should be able to turn a small gear advantage into a big advantage in a fight.

Of course if I'm wrong, and now at 55 gear really doesn't matter at all: then yeah, that sucks.
I think one of the issues at level 55 is that PvE gear is pretty strong at the moment with bolster. A patch may be pending to fix this. I would call this an unintended consequence of the bolster system. If I understand your post, there is nothing wrong with a small gap between different tiers within the pvp gear groups. If that is your point, I agree. Thanks Jtrick Cool name. What does the "J" in your name represent?

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
04.18.2013 , 03:14 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Genttry View Post
Heya Somejagoff (snicker), thanks for the reply. No, I'm not being sarcastic. Somewhere in my long post I mentioned breaking the mold. The novelty I'm talking about is to have an MMO game, with PvE and all, with a viable and competitive and maybe semi-balanced esport component. I play MMOs for the same reasons as many others- for the camarderie, for the fun groups and, for me, the PvP components. I simply posit that perhaps SWTOR hasn't developed a niche market yet. It has a fantastic backdrop of the Star Wars Universe which I and many others love. I think now may be a good time to develop a novel esport component. That's all I am saying. The bolster system, sans bugs and other readily-apparent flaws, feels like a step in the right direction toward a more level playing field.

I honestly don't know how to balance an MMO esport, but WoW has done it, kind of. SWTOR can maybe take that model and improve it. Like i said I still enjoy WoW arenas and have played to glasiator level. I really want SWTOR to succeed. I think the forums are a tough place to present ideas due to so many people trolling (as you mention) and generally being rude, but that was not my intent at all. Thanks for the reply buddy, mucho appreciado!
I want this game to succeed as well, but the main problem is that whenever Severe issues arise, it's as if the development team is on vacation for 7 months at a time. After a while, it genuinely becomes hard not to become jaded and think the worst of them. At this point, it's also hard to imagine that their priority is anything but the cartel market. Almost every patch now has maybe 30-50 lines of cartel market updates, then maybe 2 lines of bugfixes. It's for that reason that it seems unlikely that this game will last very long, let alone develop into an e-sport.

I do love star wars and I really loved this game initially (which is why I subscribed), but update after update, they either break the game further, intentionally or not, or flood the cartel market with new repainted armor sets. So if they kill any incentive to pvp at all (which they've done with bolster And removing the exotic crafting mats from REing), there will be no reason for me to stay subscribed.

I realize it's hard for PVEers to see how this isn't a good change, but in all honesty, a good comparison would be that you could hop into the newest "hardest" operation wearing green questing gear, get bolstered up enough to do the content, then get some slightly better gear as a reward. It might be fun a handful of times, maybe even several times til you had BIS gear just to squeeze out every last stat, but ultimately, if there's no challenge at all and nothing to gain from doing the operation, why keep doing it week after week? You don't need the gear due to the pve bolster, you don't get any challenge because of the pve bolster, and it's the exact same mechanics week after week. Adding bolster to operations would basically turn them into dailies, yeah, you get some basic rewards, but nothing special, very little challenge, and Few people have the desire to do them day after day, week after week, month after month.

PVP was at least fun before because each match was usually different, different enemies, different teammates, different strategies, etc. So definite change from just grinding dailies in pve. Now it's pretty much queue up, exploit your gear to the max Just to be "equal" to the other team, then worry about who's on your team, their team, strategies, etc. PVP isn't fun anymore and I haven't played it much at all since 2.0. Yeah, I rolled some teams naked, then rolled some teams without enhancements, ha ha, funny, then got bored after 2 matches. It's about as fun as playing on the PTS, i.e., not fun at all. I want to play a professional MMO, with professional design, clear stats, clear rewards, etc. SWTOR is quickly failing in all those categories.
Lightsabers, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Jedi Mind Tricks, what else could you want from an MMO? There may be other MMOs out there, but do they have Lightsabers?....Do They?

Once you're in the hole, what's a few more feet?

Genttry's Avatar


Genttry
04.18.2013 , 03:21 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by SomeJagoff View Post
I want this game to succeed as well, but the main problem is that whenever Severe issues arise, it's as if the development team is on vacation for 7 months at a time. After a while, it genuinely becomes hard not to become jaded and think the worst of them. At this point, it's also hard to imagine that their priority is anything but the cartel market. Almost every patch now has maybe 30-50 lines of cartel market updates, then maybe 2 lines of bugfixes. It's for that reason that it seems unlikely that this game will last very long, let alone develop into an e-sport.

I do love star wars and I really loved this game initially (which is why I subscribed), but update after update, they either break the game further, intentionally or not, or flood the cartel market with new repainted armor sets. So if they kill any incentive to pvp at all (which they've done with bolster And removing the exotic crafting mats from REing), there will be no reason for me to stay subscribed.

I realize it's hard for PVEers to see how this isn't a good change, but in all honesty, a good comparison would be that you could hop into the newest "hardest" operation wearing green questing gear, get bolstered up enough to do the content, then get some slightly better gear as a reward. It might be fun a handful of times, maybe even several times til you had BIS gear just to squeeze out every last stat, but ultimately, if there's no challenge at all and nothing to gain from doing the operation, why keep doing it week after week? You don't need the gear due to the pve bolster, you don't get any challenge because of the pve bolster, and it's the exact same mechanics week after week. Adding bolster to operations would basically turn them into dailies, yeah, you get some basic rewards, but nothing special, very little challenge, and Few people have the desire to do them day after day, week after week, month after month.

PVP was at least fun before because each match was usually different, different enemies, different teammates, different strategies, etc. So definite change from just grinding dailies in pve. Now it's pretty much queue up, exploit your gear to the max Just to be "equal" to the other team, then worry about who's on your team, their team, strategies, etc. PVP isn't fun anymore and I haven't played it much at all since 2.0. Yeah, I rolled some teams naked, then rolled some teams without enhancements, ha ha, funny, then got bored after 2 matches. It's about as fun as playing on the PTS, i.e., not fun at all. I want to play a professional MMO, with professional design, clear stats, clear rewards, etc. SWTOR is quickly failing in all those categories.
I hear ya on the disappointment with Bioware. my entire guild quit when they announced, the night before, that ranked warzones were canceled. I came back within the past few weeks after I got utterly bored with WoW. It's hella fun to level up in SWTOR, I'll give them that. I agree with your comment re: the designer's poor execution. Alas, you are probably right...no sense in holding your breath. As far as getting bored with PvP in SWTOR, I'm personally not to that point yet. I would love to see this as an esport with commentators, an AJ SWTOR site, etc. Wishful thinking maybe...but I wanted to start the dialogue. Maybe someone over at Bioware actually pays attention to well written posts where others provide input...

Ineedavacation's Avatar


Ineedavacation
04.18.2013 , 03:31 AM | #17
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING. You think 2.0 works ? You think PVP is better? Your smoking the extremely good stuff. I can't even imagine something more screwed up.

It's fools like you that get fed total crap and then applaud.

chaosmadness's Avatar


chaosmadness
04.18.2013 , 03:34 AM | #18
All are free to make their opinions.
If the OP likes of the state pf pvp atm, good for him, games are for fun.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
04.18.2013 , 03:51 AM | #19
I have been as critical about PvP in this game as anyone. But I must say that there are both good and bad things that have been introduced with 2.0 regarding PvP. It is not a one-way street to Disaster Palace.

In fact when the devs do something that adds both good and bad effects, it doesn't bother me that much (assuming the good and bad are of about equal effect). It at least shows the devs are trying, although perhaps not with the desired effectiveness.

What bothers me more is when the community knows something is wrong and the devs do nothing about it. This signals a much deeper, structural problem that may be as fundamental as the devs not knowing there is a problem.

The Bolster/Separate queue for lev 30-54 issue (some will call it a fiasco), falls in the first category. It messes up pvp progression until people get fully geared at 55. But at least it allows warzones to now span all 55 levels. And once you get fully geared in Conqueror and purple 28 augments, there is no question but that you will be more powerful than you were in EWH.

For me, the fundamental pvp problems are the lack of x-server queues and the persistence with which the devs continue to manage class (im)balance with the wrong metrics. Unless those get fixed, the overall situation is grim.

Kaerwolf's Avatar


Kaerwolf
04.18.2013 , 04:08 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Genttry View Post
*tips hat to Bioware*

Good job on reworking pvp to engage more people. The game, as everyone knows, took a nosedive within the first 6 months- one year. Some people came back for F2P, but we still need more.

Instanced PvP is looking better than ever, regardless of the whine posts. Remember the silent majority happily plods along or quits and I think this step will help to improve the playerbase.

Reccommendations:

1- Implememnt an "arena styile" system. Classes in Swotr feel more balanced than in WoW. Even in WoW, arenas are still popular with FOTM comps. To wit, there is even an "Arena Junkie" site that still lives on, with posting limited to those who have attained the highest ratings or are previous "gladiators." I still play WoW and read and post on AJ after these many years and I still rush to gladiator ratings at the end of each season. Why? Because it is fun for me.

2- Continue to balance classes: this is a tough one, I know, because the game also contains a PvE component. Let's face it, WoW is a template regardless of how much people disagree. It retains a very successful business model for 10+ years. However, one of the issues in WoW PvP/Arenas is balancing classes because PvE is the mainstay. In this game, PvE is simply "ok", but you have a chance to develop an mmo niche now. SWTOR as an esport will bring more people back to the game. This same group of ultra-competitive people will spend money not only on subscriptions for you, but they will also buy cartel coins in order to get to level 55 faster.

3- Implement some end-game, PvP-based cartel coin rewards: some may complain about having to spend more money, but I think this is a good addition. We have valor boosts currently, but perhaps you can put your minds to it and get more creative!

4- Make healing feel more rewarding: As of right now, playing a healing class is not as rewarding or as fun as in WoW. I personally think the reason for this is that healers aren't vital. If they are vital, it is only in ranked warzones and, let's face it, the ranked warzones are a pretty small percentage of your loyal playerbase. I've been in games as both dps and heals and my experience is that PUGS could really care less about healers. There is no incentive to support healers now as it is a DPS race without peels, cc and support for our healers. Obviously, ranked/rated warzones understand the distinction between dps and healers and that playerbase covets them. In my opinion, healers should be so valuable that even the casual instanced-pvp'er should know how important it is to keep them up. I'd say the same goes for tanks, but there are so many people playing the "warrior and bounty hunter" classes that the problem isn't as drastic. Same with the other tank class. (edit: caveat- my main is a healer so I admit I am biased. At least I admit it.....)

5- Lastly, consider making SWTOR an esport: it is apparent that you sunk a lot of money into the "leveling-up" part of the game. This game is more fun to level up than any other MMO I've played, and I used to be an avid WoW, multi-class, multi-season gladiator pvp'er. Like many, I left this game after the first no-go on ranked pvp but I came back. It has been fun to level up my new toons (but at the same time frustrating to find out that i can't transfer the healer and Jugg I attained pvp rank 50+ with.)

In summary, I think you can define your market right now. Make SWTOR a more viable esport game and I would bet that your cashflow will increase. There are a lot of players that are waiting for the next MMO-esport apart from WoW (and, please note, even WoW has problems as an esport but there are coders who have recently improved how easy it is to follow tournament games as a spectator). Since the game didn't do as well as EVERYONE hoped initially, I say strike while the iron is hot! End-game PvE, while enjoyed by some players, is definitely not ground-breaking or lauded in the media as original and refreshing. You can do that with PvP though. In fact, when we all first bought the game, Bioware even announced that SWTOR would have excellent and novel world PvP and instanced PvP. That's why I bought and subscibed to begin with!

Keep moving PvP in the right direction. Thank you fpr starting to make the right moves. There may be a big backlash to this thread but these are simply suggestions from an arena-junkie and a player who immensely enjoys PvP. I love the Star Wars Universe and I love competitive pvp. The potential is great, padawans...just use the force and take heed of my yoda-like wisdom! lolo.
I love the Star Wars universe as well, and right now it is this love that makes many people stay.

I am not a direct opponent to the bolster system per se, but it is too powerful bolsters. Gear must be worth grinding for and they failed miserably with this patch in that regard. It is not acceptable, especially since it was a very known bug from the PTS. This last patch made it better, but bolster is still overpowered.

I think healers and ranged dps got the most rewards regarding class changes in 2.0. Heck, if you have 3 healers in a group the main fights for control of an objective will literally go on forever if everyone knows what they are doing in a WZ. Now it has all come down to who can "ninja" the other sides other objective or who has the most "noobs" in their team who'll make a rookie mistake in the main fight and offer an opportunity. It is extremely hard to get one in a fight between two evenly matched teams. This new bolstered system makes healers invaluable and they typically place themselves in the top of the charts at the end of WZs.

As for class balance, especially in pvp this is an issue which perhaps is the only arena of this game where it truly is an issue, there is now a huge imbalance between many classes that they will have to tweak. Some abilities simply should not work in pvp under certain conditions or be significantly weaker in pvp than they are in pve and so forth. There are plenty of others describing these imbalances I think so I won't do it here myself.