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Yoda vs Darth Sidious fight (episode III)

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Yoda vs Darth Sidious fight (episode III)

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.31.2013 , 02:41 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Doctoglethorpe View Post
Retroactive? Okay see your just flat out of context now. The novelization was written based on the screen play, not the film itself, and written at the same time the film was produced, not after.

The author wasn't trying to explain the scenes in new light, he was explaining them simply how he interpreted them based on the screen play. Which leads me to believe the screen play was either lacking to begin with and he had to compensate for it to make the book not suck or the screen play was much better then the final product Georgie produced. Either way, Lucas is to blame. He's a ****in hack these days and they shouldn't of let him have so much control over the PT. Either his screen play sucked, his directorial ability sucked, or both. The book makes up for it with a competent author telling the story in a way that isn't complete garbage. Giving the nessisary details so that things make sense, ignoring the **** thats worthless fluff, and making us actually understand the characters rather then just witness them.

And I hear the excuse a lot that its hard to do that in a movie, hard to show what characters are feelings. Yeah, it is hard, but its not impossible. There are very good directors around that can and do pull it off. George isn't one of them. He used to be good, but not anymore. I wish people would stop giving him a free pass like its impossible for movies to be as deep as books.
George has really never been that great at directing. Working on ANH he had other people collaborating with him helping him to produce a great movie, and the result of that effort was a middle ground that avoided many potential pitfalls and kept the best ideas of the people involved in making it.

Empire and RotJ weren't directed by him, and the screenplays were only based on his story. That's George's strength, he has great story ideas and envisions a fascinating universe. He's not very good at directing films which portray his universe, however.


Quote: Originally Posted by Lodril View Post
Honestly, it was a stupid plan to begin with; gee, I don't like the current elected official, so I'll just wander into his office and murder him, and then everything will be fine. It was almost as stupid a plan as abruptly sending a bunch of Jedi to arrest him... Sidious won that fight the moment he was elected Supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode I, and everything after that was just the Jedi slowly realizing they'd already lost.
Like I said, Yoda should really have never gone to fight Sidious. The entire prequels turn Yoda into a bumbling imbecile. Instead of the wise, old Jedi Master we see in Empire and RotJ, he's a goofy cartoon.

Yoda spends the whole trilogy basically being too stupid to see the writing on the wall, and then when it's finally obvious that Skywalker has fallen to the Dark Side, he then makes a fool of himself by confronting the Emperor; alone and outgunned, what did he expect to happen?
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
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Kameki's Avatar


Kameki
03.31.2013 , 10:51 AM | #22
I havent read any books.

One could argue Sidious was simply so powerful, that Yoda's ignorance was pretty much a certainty. Perhaps this is also what Yoda realised. When he confronted the Emperor, Yoda only knew him as Palpatine, who certainly doesn't look ferocious, but rather more of an elitist snob doing politics. Yoda could severely have underestimated Sidious based on prejudice. When he fought with Sidious, he must also have realised that the entire Clone Wars was all orchestrated by Sidious. When he fell in the Senate building, he chose to flee. Perpaps he thought that, although there was a good chance at defeating Sidious, surviving was first priority. The Jedi had to survive after the decimation. If he killed Palpatine, the gains would not be so great as to outweigh the losses had he fell in battle.

At least that is my vision of the duel. Good thing it is fiction, so I can speculate about it to my liking
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Lodril's Avatar


Lodril
03.31.2013 , 09:59 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Doctoglethorpe View Post
You underestimate Vaapad.
Do I? The only guy that is left alive is the one who attempts to utilize the vapors of his own brushes with the Dark against a master who revels in it. The only guy that is left alive more than a few seconds is the guy who Yoda all but accused of being too arrogant, who after all his companions fell so quickly, continues to press the attack against his giggling opponent, certain could yet overcome him all alone. The guy who only seemed to manage any sort of headway in that fight once Anakin runs into the room and stands there in a moment of indecision, and who is so easily tossed aside once that moment is over.

I'm not sure I'm underestimating Vaapad at all. I think Vaapad was a brilliant trap that Windu set for himself.

Lodril's Avatar


Lodril
03.31.2013 , 10:11 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Yoda spends the whole trilogy basically being too stupid to see the writing on the wall, and then when it's finally obvious that Skywalker has fallen to the Dark Side, he then makes a fool of himself by confronting the Emperor; alone and outgunned, what did he expect to happen?[
(sorry to edit your quote, but I find that color really annoying)

I think you are absolutely right. Yoda is very wise later, and does spend the trilogy doing stupid things. Wisdom comes from someplace, and in movies 1-3, we're watching him earn it. He realizes he is outgunned, and that the Light Side can never destroy the Dark with its own weapons. His real epiphany when trying to assault the master of the Dark comes in that fight, and only then does he realize he cannot win that way. Yoda's victory happens decades later, when Luke recognizes that wisdom, and tosses his own saber aside. That's when the Dark Side is defeated. Everything else, telekinesis, lightning bolts, all that is dross.

Spartanik's Avatar


Spartanik
03.31.2013 , 10:20 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Lodril View Post
(sorry to edit your quote, but I find that color really annoying)

I think you are absolutely right. Yoda is very wise later, and does spend the trilogy doing stupid things. Wisdom comes from someplace, and in movies 1-3, we're watching him earn it. He realizes he is outgunned, and that the Light Side can never destroy the Dark with its own weapons. His real epiphany when trying to assault the master of the Dark comes in that fight, and only then does he realize he cannot win that way. Yoda's victory happens decades later, when Luke recognizes that wisdom, and tosses his own saber aside. That's when the Dark Side is defeated. Everything else, telekinesis, lightning bolts, all that is dross.
Its what gandalf says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fby3O74fWE
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Also
Quote:
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jovianus's Avatar


jovianus
03.31.2013 , 11:49 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Lodril View Post
No, Palpatine spent almost the whole fight laughing at him.

The Jedi are fearsome opponents because they can see a few seconds into the future, and for centuries, they practiced their martial styles based on that assumption. The movies mention several times that the Dark side obscures this prescience, which is probably why Jedi, who have lightning fast reflexes in every other scene, fumble so easily when faced with someone they have trouble predicting. They are effectively fighting with blinders on. I really think the only reason Windu lasted as long as he did was because Palpatine had to keep him alive long enough for Anakin to get there and witness the attack. As soon as he did, and made his choice, the fight was over.
So were all those clone troopers who gunned down multiple Jedi Masters actually Sith Lords in disguise? Outside of the big 'visions' I think the whole Jedi Precognition thing is vastly overstated. At best it seems to be heightened reflexes, and maybe (a la the Yoda scene on Wookieworld) a flash of warning. But seeing a few seconds into the future, not so much.

Quote:
Honestly, it was a stupid plan to begin with; gee, I don't like the current elected official, so I'll just wander into his office and murder him, and then everything will be fine. It was almost as stupid a plan as abruptly sending a bunch of Jedi to arrest him... Sidious won that fight the moment he was elected Supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode I, and everything after that was just the Jedi slowly realizing they'd already lost.
Uh, that's kind of a gross oversimplification It's not like they just had disagreements with Palpatine's economic policy or something. He was revealed as a Sith, the most ancient and deadly enemy of both the Jedi and the Republic. Pretty much every major conflict in galactic history, and every major threat to the Republic, has come from the Sith.

Which kind of goes toward what you said about challenging Palpatine direclty being hubris. If there was ever a time to gamble everything..that was pretty much it, after thousands of years the Sith were on the verge of final, complete victory over the Jedi Order and the Republic, not really the time to become contemplative and practice humility and restraint.

Jenzali's Avatar


Jenzali
04.01.2013 , 04:32 AM | #27
The idea I get about Ataru forum (the lightsaber form Yoda uses) is that it's so acrobatic and energy inefficient that if you don't dispatch your opponent quickly you will inevitably lose from exhaustion.
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Lodril's Avatar


Lodril
04.01.2013 , 06:41 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
So were all those clone troopers who gunned down multiple Jedi Masters actually Sith Lords in disguise? Outside of the big 'visions' I think the whole Jedi Precognition thing is vastly overstated.
It's what got Anakin through the pod race, according to the movies, so there's supposed to be something to it.

If you have one or two clones firing at a Jedi, they've got to react to one or two angles of fire, modified slightly by variables (always in motion is future). The more you have, the more variables exist, so by the time you have an army of clones facing you with hundreds if not thousands of rifles pointed at you, the number of escape routes dwindles from, 'hey look at my lightning reflexes' and becomes 'which clone I would I like to shoot me'.

jovianus's Avatar


jovianus
04.01.2013 , 06:51 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Lodril View Post
It's what got Anakin through the pod race, according to the movies, so there's supposed to be something to it.

If you have one or two clones firing at a Jedi, they've got to react to one or two angles of fire, modified slightly by variables (always in motion is future). The more you have, the more variables exist, so by the time you have an army of clones facing you with hundreds if not thousands of rifles pointed at you, the number of escape routes dwindles from, 'hey look at my lightning reflexes' and becomes 'which clone I would I like to shoot me'.
I'm not talking about the 'offscreen' deaths. I'm talking about the onscreen ones where powerful Jedi Masters are caught completely offguard and gunned down by 3 or 4 troopers. Aayla Secura, Ki Adi Mundi, etc.

Made worse by the fact that Lucas has explicitly stated that there was no 'special programming' in the Clones of any kind, so can't pass it off as some kind of switch going off in their heads that the Jedi couldn't have predicted.

Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
04.01.2013 , 07:58 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Lodril View Post
No, Palpatine spent almost the whole fight laughing at him.

The Jedi are fearsome opponents because they can see a few seconds into the future, and for centuries, they practiced their martial styles based on that assumption. The movies mention several times that the Dark side obscures this prescience, which is probably why Jedi, who have lightning fast reflexes in every other scene, fumble so easily when faced with someone they have trouble predicting. They are effectively fighting with blinders on. I really think the only reason Windu lasted as long as he did was because Palpatine had to keep him alive long enough for Anakin to get there and witness the attack. As soon as he did, and made his choice, the fight was over.


Sidious won that fight the moment he was elected Supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode I, and everything after that was just the Jedi slowly realizing they'd already lost.
You are absolutely right concerning the fight between Windu and Sidious. Windu was being played that whole fight. Sidious killed the first 3 masters with 3 strokes of his lightsaber so he could get them out of the way and play with Windu, waiting for Anakin to show up. That whole fight was set up as Anakin's test as soon as the 4 Jedi Masters set foot in that office. Palpatine was never in any danger of losing.

As for the fight with Yoda, It seemed more lopsided (in Palpatine's favor) to me than apparently some others who posted in this thread. At that point, Sidious had his new apprentice, most of the Jedi had been killed, and (essentially) Yoda was the only one left - Sidious didn't know Obi-Wan was still alive at that point. He didn't care about one single Jedi, and he wanted to blow off some steam with Yoda. He'd been hiding in plain sight for so long he wanted to shove that fact in Yoda's face and he did.

He was, at that moment, like Zeus playing with his toys (mortals) in the Illiad at the battle of Troy. Nothing anyone did was going to make a difference, he was going to end up getting his way.
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