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Problem with tanks in this game.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Jedi Knight
Problem with tanks in this game.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.12.2013 , 08:35 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by UberRod View Post
I don't necessarily want full blown City of Heroes tanks, but better cc resistance and better threat/aggro control. And ok, a little more resilience. Reduce the damage output if necessary.
Tanks in TOR already have more than enough threat generation. If you're having problems after the first 15-20 seconds of a fight, you're doing it wrong, and the only class that really has problems in those first 15-20 seconds (Guardians) is getting massively buffed in 2.0 so that their threat is amazingly solid.

As to resilience (by which I take to mean "survivability" or "time-to-kill"), tank survivability in TOR is perfectly fine where it is. It's not "herpderp live forever" like CoX was because CoX was largely designed and balanced around the concept of the immortality curve. TOR operates under the concept of continual attrition and your healers exist expressly to counteract that attrition (whereas support powersets in CoX existed purely to push the immortality curve to the nth degree). If you're having survivability problems as a tank in TOR, it's because you're either painfully undergeared or horribly built.

As to reducing damage, seriously, no. Tanks in CoX suffered from a massive inability to solo effectively because it took forever to kill things because they had utterly terrible damage. The only reason they could hold aggro at all was because of punch-taunting. In TOR, damage and threat generation are actually linked close enough that a reduction in damage dealt will actually substantially impact your total threat generation. Tanks are already dealing only 33-40% of the damage that a DPS does. Reducing it because some people can't manage to survive with the perfectly acceptable levels of survivability that tanks *already* get is completely pointless.

Pretty much the only thing you asked for that could actually be needed is some degree of CC resistance, though, as I stated before, TOR isn't like CoX, where you're going to get CC thrown in your face constantly. If anything, CC in TOR is a rare enough occurrence that it doesn't really matter. In 2.0, Troopers are getting Hold the Line, which is 6 seconds of immunity to CC and physics effects (KB, pulls, knockdowns) every 30 seconds and it's not really a capability that is making them somehow massively superior tanks. CC just isn't prevalent enough in TOR to actually *justify* any real level of CC resistance (not to mention that it's not something explicitly coded for in game so allotting for a new attribute that reduces the duration of a specific type of effect rather than simply ending it or providing immunity to it would take a not insubstantial amount of work; hell, the devs haven't even done anything to reduce DoT/HoT clipping, which is something that's become somewhat standard for MMOs). The only times that it would make an appreciable difference is a *minute* number of trash pulls where, as a tank, you get bounced around for the first few GCDs and then never have to deal with it again.

Of course, if they *did* add some degree of CC resistance/immunity to tanks, it would alter the balance calculations for CC effects, forcing revaluation of those, which is a whole can of worms in an of itself, not to mention having to generate 2 separate categories for CCs that are meant to be subjected to this new resistance and other CCs that are not. Half of the reason why CoX was so borked with CC was specifically because the developers attempted to provide baseline CC resistance in an environment where CC was *way* too prevalent. CC isn't prevalent enough in TOR to justify altering the balance formulas and everything else just to arbitrarily assuage the annoyance a minute number of trash fights pose over the course of the entire game.

Rather than trying to complicate it and end up screwing it up like CoX did, the TOR developers have taken the wiser course and decided to keep CC simple. Which is a good thing.
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UberRod's Avatar


UberRod
03.12.2013 , 08:37 PM | #12
Maybe it's just Guardians I have a problem with. My brother specced his Shadow to be our group's tank and does a much better job tanking then I ever did. And I'm fully black hole tank geared with over 25k hit points.

UberRod's Avatar


UberRod
03.12.2013 , 08:47 PM | #13
It's not that I'm having survive-ability issues as a tank. I guess I'm just lazy and miss the easy street life of as a tank in CoX. Although I would argue your point that tanks in CoX only held aggro because of punch-taunting. The tanks aggro fields did the bulk of the work. I've seen mobs run by me to get the blaster in the back, stop and then attack me all because of the aggro field my tank had. Never hit them with any attacks.

And at higher levels, tanks could take out lots of mobs as their powersets actually had area effect attacks.

But I am looking forward to the better aggro tools in 2.0.

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
03.12.2013 , 09:07 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by UberRod View Post
It's not that I'm having survive-ability issues as a tank. I guess I'm just lazy and miss the easy street life of as a tank in CoX. Although I would argue your point that tanks in CoX only held aggro because of punch-taunting. The tanks aggro fields did the bulk of the work. I've seen mobs run by me to get the blaster in the back, stop and then attack me all because of the aggro field my tank had. Never hit them with any attacks.

And at higher levels, tanks could take out lots of mobs as their powersets actually had area effect attacks.

But I am looking forward to the better aggro tools in 2.0.
hmm sounds like you need to put some work in to work out how to generate threat. This game is not cox all the classes are build with player skill developed over time as a key ingredient.

I play a guardian and they are great. In a top guild i had to work hard to hold threat over the first 20 seconds against DPS that where top notch and did not start slow. But the fact that i could suggests that if you cant do it now you wont be able in 2.0 either.

One key is to use taunt in your rotation. If your full tank spec you want to go something likep: Saber throw - Leap - Force Sweep - sunder - guardian slash - taunt - pommel strike; to start with that should give you enough threat that the dps will be ok going fast. Then blade storm - sunder - aoe taunt..... throw in repost every time it comes up.


If you tanking groups of trash mark one as a kill target for the dps to all aim for. Then if you do the same skills as above but with aoe taunt rather than taunt you will find you hold threat on em all.

Some other keys - once you get good i find it is better to use tab to switch to a new target and hit them with something then tab again rather than relying on aoe skills...

It is fun guadins have a lot of manoverability you can get from mob to mob quick - if something runs past you you gota be able to taget them and single target taunt or sber throw before they get to the healer. then switch back to your main mob and proceed to smash his face.

In terms of survivability dont stack health - all your augment should be defence. If your in black hole gear you should have 25k healh 28% defence 50% shield 50% absorb if you still dieing then its not you its your healer.

I understand that shadows have very good aoe taniking and a much easier threat system than guards. So its probably the case that it easier to be ok on them to start with thats all.
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Zalekanzer's Avatar


Zalekanzer
03.15.2013 , 01:09 PM | #15
Man, I f***ing LOVED City of Heroes. I had an active sub from launch to shutdown. Even if I was playing other games, I'd still keep it active so I could pop in every once in a while to just relax and play a FUN game. *sigh*
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Glorthox's Avatar


Glorthox
03.22.2013 , 11:33 AM | #16
Well survivablity for tanks should be addressed as well as threat generation in the aoe department. Assassins have such a huge advantage when it comes to AOE threat. But tanks IMO seriously need an overhaul, they should naturally have more health and survive longer than the average dps or healer.

Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
03.23.2013 , 04:23 PM | #17
CoX did get more balanced as it went, and I don't think it was quite "herp derp, staying alive forever." Even in sub-50 stuff after ED, you could only take so much before being defeated. It's +50 stuff had to power mobs crazily, but it did make it more of a challenge.

I think the biggest surprise for me between City of Heroes and these WoW style games is Elites and champions. Elites are scattered in some random spots and can surprise you and make you feel quite weak. If they were just in special content, it would make sense. Still, ToR is better than WoW used to be, where soloing regular mobs could drain you a lot depending on your class. My characters feel stronger and tougher in ToR, at least.

I do hate the need for a healer in group content, but it is nice that there is a clear need for that class, too. I still wish ToR allowed for more hybridity in its builds and classes, and 2.0 looks like it's going to limit that even more... makes me miss CoX even more. Oh well.

I think my main complaint for Tanks in game for ToR is KB... it doesn't happen often, but it does make you feel weak when it does. Giant robots doing it randomly is okay, but Kilran knocks my Guardian down about every 10-15 seconds in the Jedi Prisoner, which is obnoxious, rather than thematic and challenging.

heyyogroove's Avatar


heyyogroove
03.27.2013 , 09:55 PM | #18
As far as knockback, CC's, and survivability goes, I think that TOR is pretty balanced. Part of what makes bosses fun and interesting is how you handle their abilities. If you're fighting a boss that knocks you around, tank him against a wall. If he has serious stun potential, take an off tank with you. Positioning and threat control are parts of Tanking 101 that make being a tank interesting.

The part of tanking that I am having to adjust to (coming from WoW) is the idea that not everything needs to be tanked. Mobs in instances here are so spread out, that it is difficult to keep them all. Some of the weaker ones, though, can be cc'd or simply burned by the dps. As long as the healer isn't getting constantly interrupted or brutally murdered , it's all gravy.

Tanking in SWTOR takes some practice, no doubt. Just be sure that you are a) managing your defensive cooldowns effectively and b) remembering basic tanking doctrine, you will do just fine.
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Pheebe's Avatar


Pheebe
03.29.2013 , 09:43 AM | #19
Now it's not be hating or anything, but if a tank is immune to CC, can't lose threat and can pretty much survive even without a healer.. Then I fail to see what the point of playing it would be

I mean the point of playing any class, I think, is to become better at it. So if you're a really good tank, then you'll be able to hold all dat aggro, because you're an experienced player like that and it feels really satisfying. The other side of that coin is of course that if you're not a good tank then you won't be able to hold all aggro. It's not necessarily a disaster either if you hold most of it and the other players are fairly competent, but it leaves you some room for improvement.

If you're just by default an ultra-tank that can't lose aggro and can't die, then there isn't really anything to play for, no? other than enjoying the scenery I guess

Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
03.31.2013 , 12:48 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Pheebe View Post
Now it's not be hating or anything, but if a tank is immune to CC, can't lose threat and can pretty much survive even without a healer.. Then I fail to see what the point of playing it would be

I mean the point of playing any class, I think, is to become better at it. So if you're a really good tank, then you'll be able to hold all dat aggro, because you're an experienced player like that and it feels really satisfying. The other side of that coin is of course that if you're not a good tank then you won't be able to hold all aggro. It's not necessarily a disaster either if you hold most of it and the other players are fairly competent, but it leaves you some room for improvement.

If you're just by default an ultra-tank that can't lose aggro and can't die, then there isn't really anything to play for, no? other than enjoying the scenery I guess
It's more nuanced than that. Not sure how much you were talking in general or with City of Heroes in particular, but except for an early part of that game, you could only hold the attention of so man mobs at once, and any tank could only take so much damage. The game was set for you to take on way more enemies at once than The Old Republic does, however. So you could feel pretty tough for that. The Old Republic seems to be a nice balance between CoH and what I remember of WoW. I felt way too wimpy in WoW.

One superior thing in City of Heroes is how it broke away from the trinity concept. You don't want to do group content in ToR without a tank and a healer. Not necessarily needing those things is an improvement, I would say. 2.0 is also going even more rigid with builds, from what I can see. E.g., if you're tanking as a Jedi Knight, full up the defense tree is the real only way to go. Of course before was bad with they hybrid being the no-brainer, but I'd like to see more than one route to "how to do it."