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My theory on why killing the Emperor ended the Empire

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
My theory on why killing the Emperor ended the Empire

Damatese's Avatar


Damatese
02.27.2013 , 09:12 PM | #1
So I been lurking on these forums and a lot of the EU and argument take place that the Empire simply would not fold if the Emperor died.

I think that might be true if the empire was any run of the mill one but here is a couple of factors we need to take into consideration.

1. The majority of the Empire Troops are Clones. They are bred to follow orders and a set of guidelines
2. Those empire troops that aren't clone are not mindless, I believe most of them think they are doing good or the majority of them are good men just following orders. Han Solo is a good example of this and Even Luke wanted to join the Imperials.
3. There was a Senate before the Emperor disbanded them in A New Hope.

So..what does that mean? When the head honcho died Aka Palpatine. The Clone default back to the second in command. In this case the second in command would be the Republic and it's senate body. Being Clone troopers they were just following the chain of command and so the majority would grand the Rebel Alliance aka The New republic instant military backing with the majority of the fleet and ships at their beck and call.

The people who enlist would either quit if they done wrong or welcome new management, after all just because you were an imperial does not mean you are fanatically loyal to the Emperor. I bet there would be some major house cleaning, I also bet that Palpatine was so sure that he would never lose power that his sudden death would revert the clone army back to the republic hand.

So, I think the whole celebration that happens at the end of ROTJ was actually very realistic in the SW universe due to the universal nature of the military branch of the clones.

Thanks to the Clone Wars T.V show, we get to see how fanatically loyal those clones are the chain of command.

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.28.2013 , 12:04 AM | #2
I'm sorry, But that's not what happened.

After the Emperor died, yes there where celebrations, but they where started by Rebel Alliance members and those oppressed by the Emperor. These demonstrations where suppressed later and things went back to normal for many Imperial Citizens.

People don't just say "Well s***, I guess I was wrong to work for the legitimate government and commit atrocities in their name because some terrorists killed our leader. I should bow down to these terrorists/self proclaimed heirs of the Republic or give up and go home"

Some might do this, but not anything close to enough to make a dent in the Imperial war machine.

Also, clones are a non-issue by Return of the Jedi. Clones by this time had been phased out, died of rapid aging, or killed. Palps replaced them with regular human males for the most part and so the age of the clone had faded into history by Return of the Jedi. Even so, Sidious would have ordered the second in command to be of his own choosing, not the governing body he himself dissolved. Sidious is self-assured and arrogant, but he's not stupid.

You shouldn't base an argument of post-RotJ on the clone wars series and not reading any of the Post-RotJ era books for yourself. They paint a very different picture. I recommend you begin with the X-wing series or Thrawn trilogy.

Now, if you are trolling me, 8/10 because I noticed. If not, 0/10 this theory has been easily debunked.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
02.28.2013 , 06:12 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Damatese View Post
1. The majority of the Empire Troops are Clones. They are bred to follow orders and a set of guidelines
2. Those empire troops that aren't clone are not mindless, I believe most of them think they are doing good or the majority of them are good men just following orders. Han Solo is a good example of this and Even Luke wanted to join the Imperials.
3. There was a Senate before the Emperor disbanded them in A New Hope.
1. Wrong, the army was origanally clones, but not by the time Luke is fighting them, they have been conscripts and volunteers for a while. This is shown in the Thrawn trilogy, where Thrawn interegates a trainer before having the conscript under the trainer executed (interegate being him asking awkward questions no torture). It is also mentioned that the clones went out of fashion very quickly, presumably because the emperor executed the race creating them.
2. Some were good men following bad orders, but most had been corupted by the Emperor's racist policies, most of the good men were forced out, like Han was. Han was awarded the Corellian bloodstripe for courage and duty, so he was an exceptional officer before going rogue.
3. True the senate was disbanded, but a large number joined the rebellion after the disbanding, some were arrested, and most of the remainder were Palpatines yes men, so unlikely to alter their political leanings, as was shown in the books just after Endor (the Empire didn't vanish over night)
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Rabenschwinge's Avatar


Rabenschwinge
02.28.2013 , 10:54 AM | #4
I think one of the loop holes in the movies was that it's never really said wherein the oppression of the Empire actually lies. Luke has grown up on Tatooine, a planet that was controlled by the Hutts and where slavery was common in Episode I. And yet Luke says: "It's not that I like the Empire. I hate it!"

I find it hard to believe that the Empire's presence made things worse for the common people on Tatooine, so I wonder what he meant by that. Mos Eisley is apparently still a rather uncivilized place... So, what makes him hate the Empire?

It's never truly explained what the rebellion is actually about - do the people rebel for a principle - or is there something about the Empire that affects everybody's life? Of course people didn't like the senate being dissolved and regional governours replacing politicians out of their midst, but the rebellion existed long before that.

Many people might have seen the Jedi as romantic heroes, but their absence will hardly have affected their life, the end of the Clone War however did... And while it was the Emperor himself who orchestrated the Clone Wars in the first place that's hardly common knowledge. Nor that even the younglings were killed. In Star Wars Galaxies it was put so that the Empire even tried to frame the Alliance for the destruction of Alderaan... (which makes a certain degree of sense, since the death star - the ultimate weapon of power that they actually wanted to present to the galaxy, was destroyed before they could show it off - and a weapon of power that had been blown up already is hardly inclined to incite a lot of fear - still I wonder, was it supposed to be common knowledge that it was the Empire which destroyed Alderaan, or wasn't it?)

I think the intention was to make it appear as though the Empire was creating some 1984 throughout the galaxy. With slight difference, that there is no rebellion in 1984 (well, non that wasn't orchestrated by the government to find displeased officials, anyway - George Orwell considered the common people to dumb to be able to rebel against anything). And that it's hard to see in the movies.
Ah, yes. "Reapers."

Kharnamatic's Avatar


Kharnamatic
02.28.2013 , 12:43 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Rabenschwinge View Post
I think one of the loop holes in the movies was that it's never really said wherein the oppression of the Empire actually lies. Luke has grown up on Tatooine, a planet that was controlled by the Hutts and where slavery was common in Episode I. And yet Luke says: "It's not that I like the Empire. I hate it!"
I don't think that was to show the Empire was bad, but that Luke (like his father) was always at risk of falling to the dark side. What was that quote by Obi-Wan in the OT? "Luke! Don't give in to hate. That leads to the Dark Side." Saying "I hate (you)" is a common way to show someone has turned to the dark side in the movies, which is said by Anakin in Ep III when he's fallen.

An evil empire would contradict what's depicted in the PT. The movies spend all their time showing how weak and corrupt the Republic was, even the Jedi who lost their way to see into the future, could not stop the separatists and in the end were replaceable with clones. Meanwhile we are watching the charismatic Palpatine and his rise to power. This one man saw the failings of the Republic and decided it needed to be reformed. At the end we're cheering the destruction of the Jedi order and the dismantlement of the Senate (literally, while Yoda gets buttstomped by the Emperor for being such a bad grand master) and the creation of the empire, which according to Palpatine will "restore peace and justice to the galaxy ... in order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for ten thousand years." I don't normally associate peace and a stable society with evil.

Star Wars has always been a celebration of fascism. I guess the OT had to be sneaky about it because in the old film code days your movie would get censored if it didn't have the plucky, freedom-loving rebels win in the end. Even then, the end of New Hope (rebel victory parade scene) is clearly a homage to Triumph of the Will. My parents saw the true message of the movies and my father and my mother had Darth Vader and imperial officer costumes respectively. Now with the Clone Wars cartoon series, kids everywhere want to be storm troopers when they grow up.

Eillack's Avatar


Eillack
02.28.2013 , 02:59 PM | #6
OP, you must be new to Star Wars, read up on post RotJ before posting something like this.

0/10 .
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Rabenschwinge's Avatar


Rabenschwinge
02.28.2013 , 03:19 PM | #7
Hm. I don't want to give into a discussion who is good or evil - the final scenes in Episode VI (at least in the special edition of '97), the celebrations on Naboo and Coruscant make it clear that the lot of the people did take it as a relief that the Empire was gone. The question is how the Empire affected the common people. Not Bale Organa or Landa Carlrissian, but people like Biggs and Luke at the beginning of Episode IV.

Arguing that Luke is affected by the dark side then is absurd - he doesn't even know about the Force much less uses it then. Especially considering that in the particular scene I was referring to he was trying to chicken. He was clearly not acting out of anger. Lukes problem is that he doesn't want to get involved and let it be a classic "other people's problem" in that scene, not that he is about to give into anger.
Ah, yes. "Reapers."

Damatese's Avatar


Damatese
02.28.2013 , 09:47 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Eillack View Post
OP, you must be new to Star Wars, read up on post RotJ before posting something like this.

0/10 .
I am new to it actually. However I did do my research. What got me into starswars was the Clone wars series cartoon. Which lead me to watch the movies 1-6 in it's entirety which lead me to research Star wars fandom. Which in turn lead me to G-Cannon- B-cannon- C cannon... etc etc. Which in turns lead me to reading the debates on here .

Which what I see a lot of is the disbelief on how the empire did not end with the emperor death. EU happen etc etc...but then Lucas HImself say it's just an alternate mirror and that in his universe when the EMperor fell so too did the Empire.

Watching the Clones wars it now even more certain the way the republic get reborn again is via the remaining clone army. They were absolutely loyal to the orders and the republic so it would stand to reason when their empire fell they default back to those who are in power I.E the senate..which was disbanded because they felt what Palpatine was doing is wrong.

Hence the galaxy wide celebration when they found out he was dead. His rule got to cruel for the general masses that even the Senators had to speak up.

I am extrapolating from the movie and the cartoon series. The E.U as far as I am concern post Movies never happened. Episode 7 coming up is going to add more to it which will toss the E.U as another dimension. Which in the canon verse does not count.

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
03.01.2013 , 01:06 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Damatese View Post
I am new to it actually. However I did do my research. What got me into starswars was the Clone wars series cartoon. Which lead me to watch the movies 1-6 in it's entirety which lead me to research Star wars fandom. Which in turn lead me to G-Cannon- B-cannon- C cannon... etc etc. Which in turns lead me to reading the debates on here .

Which what I see a lot of is the disbelief on how the empire did not end with the emperor death. EU happen etc etc...but then Lucas HImself say it's just an alternate mirror and that in his universe when the EMperor fell so too did the Empire.

Watching the Clones wars it now even more certain the way the republic get reborn again is via the remaining clone army. They were absolutely loyal to the orders and the republic so it would stand to reason when their empire fell they default back to those who are in power I.E the senate..which was disbanded because they felt what Palpatine was doing is wrong.

Hence the galaxy wide celebration when they found out he was dead. His rule got to cruel for the general masses that even the Senators had to speak up.

I am extrapolating from the movie and the cartoon series. The E.U as far as I am concern post Movies never happened. Episode 7 coming up is going to add more to it which will toss the E.U as another dimension. Which in the canon verse does not count.
Episode VII isn't out yet, until it is, C-cannon is still cannon and G-cannon has not retconned it yet so it stands as the current story after RotJ.

You're new so I shouldn't expect you to quite understand all the nuances yet but here it goes. G-cannon only refers to the movies like a master shield that says "you cant touch this never, ever, ever, ever. It happened deal with it" as well as quotes by Lucas himself, not even the Clones Wars series is G-cannon (which is T-cannon, a step below G and considered only slightly more reliable than C.) Now, C-cannon fills in many gaps left by Lucas, what Lucas was referring to in your statement was more his right to stomp all over the Eu if he wants. Remember every piece of Star Wars lit is approve by Lucas Arts though so while he may not have written it as the Eu did, doesn't change that he allowed it to happen that way. Back to those gaps, the Post-RotJ era and the fall of the Empire was not shown in RotJ, only people celebrating (which doesn't exactly mean they're free). C-cannon tells the story of what happens later. Until episode VII retconns everything whenever it is released, C-cannon is still the Lucas Arts supported cannon timeline and thus should be treated as the way things happened.

Even so, you'd still be wrong by your own reasoning. Firstly, clones age twice as fast as humans. By the time of RotJ, most of the clones would be dead or to old to serve (and we know Palps replaced them with regular men from scenes in IV, V, and VI). Even so, like I said Palps wasn't an idiot, he'd set the default second in command to be a moff or successor especially after he dissolved the Senate. (he dissolved the Senate btw, because he didn't need them to control the people anymore. If they'd openly opposed him he'd have had them 'mysteriously disappear')

And also like I said, people who commit atrocities don't just roll over and submit to the people they'd been oppressing. There is also something to be said for the loyalty to their commanders drilled into Imperial soldiers. In many cases powerful Imperials owed their positions to the stability of the Empire. They wouldn't just hand things over to a terrorist organization regardless of how noble their cause seemed. Palps had decades to spread propaganda and brainwash people, the Empire was an ideal government in the minds of many Imperial citizens that Sidious merely directed and did with as he pleased.

In short, you are wrong on just about every point. We who enjoyed the EU understand what is coming, but until it does speculation over something that in everyone's minds has already happened is stupid especially when it directly contradicts what we know to be Lucas Arts supported cannon.. Please, continue to learn and start smaller next time. Something like "what happened to all the clones" would be a better question.

Also, dont tell us what you think is cannon, it doesn't matter. I hate Jar Jar, doesn't mean I can walk in and say he never happened in my mind and he just magically disappears from Episode I. Doesn't work like that, not if you want to be taken seriously.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.01.2013 , 02:04 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Episode VII isn't out yet, until it is, C-cannon is still cannon and G-cannon has not retconned it yet so it stands as the current story after RotJ....

... ... ...

...Also, dont tell us what you think is cannon, it doesn't matter. I hate Jar Jar, doesn't mean I can walk in and say he never happened in my mind and he just magically disappears from Episode I. Doesn't work like that, not if you want to be taken seriously.
Alright, go easy on him. As he said, he's just getting into all this.

You're spot on with your explanation of the levels of canon, but the OP is also correct that Lucas (in the newer, edited versions of the Original Trilogy) strongly implied that the Empire just collapsed when Palpatine was killed.
Does it make sense? Not really. However, there are a lot of inconsistencies in Star Wars that just have to be sorted out, that's the problem with a series that evolves as much as Star Wars.

While clones did age rapidly and die off, for a long time Palpatine kept making new clones, both from the Fett template and from others. Eventually Kamino was shut down after an attempted coup, but Palpatine used Spaarti cylinders to create flash clones in large quantities. Human recruits did make up over 2/3 of the Imperial Army and Stormtrooper Corps by the Battle of Endor, so the clones were the definite minority.

Furthermore, the Empire was fairly oppressive. It's tough to see in the movies because they focus on the Rebels more so than the common people. Major tenets of the Empire were humanocentric policies (notice there are no aliens in the Imperial forces, but there are in the Rebels, so that was a big source of recruitment) and also the heavy use of secret police to ferret out potential political malcontents, rebel sympathizers, etc.

Basically, the average citizen had no rights, and if they crossed the Empire, they were dead. It was the loss of basic rights and representation, more so than any specific oppression that really stimulated the Rebellion, alongside the aliens who basically got shafted. So while it was technically more peaceful and secure, that stability came at the cost of liberty and individual choice. So you could interpret Star Wars as a celebration of those values.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell