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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.18.2013 , 11:29 AM | #591
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
What's to stop them from blowing up the panels that drop down to cover the destroyed windows? What's to stop them from destroying another group of windows and walking in after they've sent everyone into space by blowing up a few strategic windows?
I think it would be the really angry Sith Lords on the bridge who would kill them if they tried getting in again. Or fighter wings which came to investigate the initial explosion. Honestly, even getting those teams in place on two ships will be a challenge, let alone the entire fleet. This is because your vaunted "burst communications" will still be picked up by the Sith, and even if encrypted, the simple presence of that transmission gives away the element of surprise. There's a reason enforced radio silence is used on covert operations. Once the HKs signal each other even once, the Sith will become suspicious and start looking for intruders on the ships.

After all, people have been trying to breach and capture capital ships for a long time, nothing you're suggesting is really that innovative or creative. There are stock responses to all these threats, and even supposing the HKs make it onto the bridge, they'll be quickly destroyed by droid response teams, or Sith Lords, or just plain old space marines in sealed suits with ion rifles.

Once the windows are breached for the first time, control will be moved from the bridge to a backup CIC. This plan is much too far fetched and based on luck. The HKs might simply be detected and destroyed when they first drop out of hyperspace, or when they're deploying on the ships. You haven't discussed how they'll get from their stealth vessels onto the hulls of the ship without risking their cloaking.



Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Btw, the Sith Assassins in KotOR II were not exactly Galen Marek, the Exile, Revan, or Luke Skywalker... Some of them actually died from gas mines in TSL if you lure them into them. The Sith Assassins also got stronger, the stronger in the force their opponent was. Considering HK units aren't force sensitive, that also seriously limits the power of these assassins.
They don't have to be Galen Marek, but they are at least a match for the HK units. Those same mines that killed them in KotOR II also killed HK units, they're pretty much on par with each other in terms of combat skills.

Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The military facility above the factory survived a full-scale orbital bombardment already, and the actually HK factory, is beneath another facility that is beneath the military facility...

Additionally, it stands to reason the HK-units would have tunnelling equipment to dig themselves out if someone tried what you're suggesting (they were psychotic, not complete idiots).
It survived a bombardment, which would be entirely different than a calculated demolitions operation. Dropping both of those facilities on top of the factory, plus several hundred tons of dirt and rock would easily crush and destroy the entire facility, and destroy most of the droids. The survivors might have digging equipment, but they might not. Even if they did, the Sith would just be waiting for them on the other end, with heavy weapons and ion grenades to drop on them. That factory is done for as soon as Traya gets her hands on one HK unit and his memory core.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2013 , 11:44 AM | #592
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
What's to stop them from blowing up the panels that drop down to cover the destroyed windows? What's to stop them from destroying another group of windows and walking in after they've sent everyone into space by blowing up a few strategic windows?
Strategic windows? Let's remember the Interdictor is a starship, not a greenhouse. Granted it has windows but not many, in fact IIRC I didn't come across a single window on the Leviathan in KOTOR II except on the bridge. I expect anything/one of value will be deeper inside the vessel rather than on the edge were there may or may not be windows. One thing's for sure, even if you blew open every window the the vessel, it would kill few.

Blowing the 'panels' that drop down likely wouldn't work, as they would likely be magnetically sealed or simply made of very thick durasteel. Let's remember that these panels have to resist turbolaser fire etc. if the shields were to fail. Or it will just be a force field, which may I repeat, are evident in the Star Wars galaxy. I've smashed my fair share of windows in The Force Unleashed - all were replaced with a Force field. When did I mention the Ravager? That wasn't Force field tech, those were particle shields.

But concerning the HK factory, we can't make the assumption it contains thousands of ready to go HK units based on a single image, in which we saw around 100. Like someone else pointed out, HK units were difficult to mass produce quickly, as they are extremely complex units. I'm not sure G0-T0 could just pump them out like B1 battle droids. We may also be exaggerating their abilities, I mean 3 of them were defeated by a single astromech... and they never actually captured any Jedi/Sith or gave Meetra that much trouble. I expect quality was lost in exchange for quantity. Nor are they designed for full scale battles, but for assassination. 'Wanton slaughter' is an ambiguous term and more likely refers to the killing of unarmed innocents and is certainly not evidence for them being skilled in battlefields.

NOTE: The stats Warren provided on the HK-51 units are non-canon, as the HK-51 units were cut not only from the game but from Star Wars canon as a whole.

Not that the Sith assassins will be terribly effective against the droids, but we must remember that Sith assassins were never used for frontal assaults, only for shadow attacks. So her invasion force will be entirely comprised of Sith troopers, grenadiers, commandos, Sith and assault droids. Although stealthed assassins can be sent to infiltrate all corners of the facility to deactivate traps and most importantly, destroy the assembly line - lets remember that stealth tech also negates mines, gas traps, turrets, assault droids etc. they can move about freely.

P.S. Ventessel, it is important that the facility remains intact because Bao-Dur will likely be imprisoned their as well as information concerning G0-T0's powerbase/droids that can be reprogrammed. She may not be aware of the former but she will want the latter, information (especially in this case) is power.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.18.2013 , 06:57 PM | #593
I think I'm about ready for this to be done too.

I honestly won't be surprised whichever way this debate goes. It's become so muddled and round-about that I have no idea how it's going to be judged effectively.

All I'll say is that G0-T0 has more scenarios going for him that result in his opponent's death.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.18.2013 , 10:28 PM | #594
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I think I'm about ready for this to be done too.

I honestly won't be surprised whichever way this debate goes. It's become so muddled and round-about that I have no idea how it's going to be judged effectively.

All I'll say is that G0-T0 has more scenarios going for him that result in his opponent's death.
More scenarios, perhaps, but they're all half-arsed or far fetched, reliant on so many convenient circumstances that we might as well just consider the possibility that some drunk spacer flies into G0-T0's yacht by accident and blows him up.

As Rayla has repeatedly pointed out, just getting troops to the surface of Malachor is going to be a serious challenge for non-Force Sensitives, and that's without considering the interdiction efforts of the Sith Fleet.

And the whole while, Traya and her assassins will be ripping up the Exchange all over Nar Shaddaa. The Exchange isn't exactly well liked, either. At best, they're just competition for other smugglers and spacers. And at worst, they're oppressive jerks universally hated by the refugees and other people who are trying to compete with their monopolistic attempt to control smuggling operations. No one will cry over their graves.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.19.2013 , 05:53 AM | #595
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
And the whole while, Traya and her assassins will be ripping up the Exchange all over Nar Shaddaa. The Exchange isn't exactly well liked, either. At best, they're just competition for other smugglers and spacers. And at worst, they're oppressive jerks universally hated by the refugees and other people who are trying to compete with their monopolistic attempt to control smuggling operations. No one will cry over their graves.
Just pointing out that that scenario has nothing to do with G0-T0's death, and trying to spin it in such a way would be "half-arsed or far fetched, reliant on so many convenient circumstances that we might as well just consider the possibility that some Sith war beast will rip Traya's head off."
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.19.2013 , 06:01 AM | #596
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Just pointing out that that scenario has nothing to do with G0-T0's death, and trying to spin it in such a way would be "half-arsed or far fetched, reliant on so many convenient circumstances that we might as well just consider the possibility that some Sith war beast will rip Traya's head off."
Without his smuggling ring and the loyalty of his Exchange thugs, what is G0-T0? Just a rogue droid, with broken programming parameters. Once his power base is crippled and his financial operations ruined, it's just a matter of time before someone tips Traya off that he'll be refueling at this place, etc. and he gets bushwhacked by Sith fighters.

Or he becomes desperate enough to do something very dangerous, and is lured into a trap onboard some "abandoned" Sith ship.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.19.2013 , 06:16 AM | #597
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
....it's just a matter of time before someone tips Traya off that he'll be refueling at this place, etc. and he gets bushwhacked by Sith fighters.

Or he becomes desperate enough to do something very dangerous, and is lured into a trap onboard some "abandoned" Sith ship.
And there's the "half-arsed or far fetched, reliant on so many convenient circumstances that we might as well just consider the possibility that some Sith war beast will rip Traya's head off."
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.19.2013 , 12:56 PM | #598
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Strategic windows? Let's remember the Interdictor is a starship, not a greenhouse. Granted it has windows but not many, in fact IIRC I didn't come across a single window on the Leviathan in KOTOR II except on the bridge. I expect anything/one of value will be deeper inside the vessel rather than on the edge were there may or may not be windows. One thing's for sure, even if you blew open every window the the vessel, it would kill few.
Since there were multiple windows on the bridge, the HK units can blow up one or two to kill everyone on the bridge then blow open another window and casually walk in before the panel comes down. Gotta love magnetic boots.

Btw, even Sith need to breathe.

The HK units would then have numerous options on the bridge of turning the ship's own automated defenses against the crew, possibly even shut down life support, also in bridge lockdowns on the interdictor, the bridge would be very hard to access, except via an airlock (KotOR I).

If the HK units can shut down life support, then the crew dies (even better if they can vent the ship's air or flood the ship with poison gas). Additionally, worst case the HK units would have time enough to have the ships in the fleet simply ram each other, which would either destroy the ships, or cripple them to the point it would take years to repair them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

Blowing the 'panels' that drop down likely wouldn't work, as they would likely be magnetically sealed or simply made of very thick durasteel. Let's remember that these panels have to resist turbolaser fire etc. if the shields were to fail. Or it will just be a force field, which may I repeat, are evident in the Star Wars galaxy. I've smashed my fair share of windows in The Force Unleashed - all were replaced with a Force field. When did I mention the Ravager? That wasn't Force field tech, those were particle shields.
Magnetically sealed blocks blaster fire not old fashioned explosive ordinance...

Also, I have Force Unleashed as well, and I don't know where you're coming up with the force field windows on starships... The station which is the first level had drop down panels that covered the broken window, additionally every instance where windows were broken on ships had drop down windows not forcefields...

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

But concerning the HK factory, we can't make the assumption it contains thousands of ready to go HK units based on a single image, in which we saw around 100. Like someone else pointed out, HK units were difficult to mass produce quickly, as they are extremely complex units. I'm not sure G0-T0 could just pump them out like B1 battle droids. We may also be exaggerating their abilities, I mean 3 of them were defeated by a single astromech... and they never actually captured any Jedi/Sith or gave Meetra that much trouble. I expect quality was lost in exchange for quantity. Nor are they designed for full scale battles, but for assassination. 'Wanton slaughter' is an ambiguous term and more likely refers to the killing of unarmed innocents and is certainly not evidence for them being skilled in battlefields.
The astromech in question had a prototype shield generator with unlimited charges and was packing anti-droid weapons. Additionally the astromech (T3-M4), kinda had plot-armor and thus the ninja rule was in effect. Basically the ninja rule is the more enemies the ninja (or protagonist that is supposed to survive a fight scene) is facing, the more insanely skillful and powerful they are portrayed as being.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

NOTE: The stats Warren provided on the HK-51 units are non-canon, as the HK-51 units were cut not only from the game but from Star Wars canon as a whole.
Actually the droid factory is one of the extremely few instances of cut-content from games being canon... Also why are the HK 51's being dragged into this, production was halted on the HK 51's because of their tendency to assassinate HK 50 units.

I think it's also possible that there are two different versions of HK 51 units, completely independent from each other, but that's besides the point.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

Not that the Sith assassins will be terribly effective against the droids, but we must remember that Sith assassins were never used for frontal assaults, only for shadow attacks. So her invasion force will be entirely comprised of Sith troopers, grenadiers, commandos, Sith and assault droids. Although stealthed assassins can be sent to infiltrate all corners of the facility to deactivate traps and most importantly, destroy the assembly line - lets remember that stealth tech also negates mines, gas traps, turrets, assault droids etc. they can move about freely.
Good luck with that... If you've played through the factory, you'd know the Assassins wouldn't even be able to reach the controls to gain entry to the actual HK droid factory, let alone sabotaging it. Traya's sith assassins were armed with some kind of staff weapon, not lightsabers, good luck busting through a force fields (I suspect star wars tech requires more bulky equipment to generate force fields than Star Trek Tech) with a metal stick...

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

P.S. Ventessel, it is important that the facility remains intact because Bao-Dur will likely be imprisoned their as well as information concerning G0-T0's powerbase/droids that can be reprogrammed. She may not be aware of the former but she will want the latter, information (especially in this case) is power.
Okay, if Traya can get Bao-dur, why can't G0-T0 get people like HK-47? I thought the rules were no famous specific individuals can help either side unless they were deemed part of the power base in the first post?

Anyways, people are talking about Traya faking her death earlier... What's to stop G0-T0 from faking his own death and then taking out Traya when she let's her guard down.

It'd be much easier for G0-T0 to successfully fake his own death, considering he can just transfer himself to another droid...

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.19.2013 , 03:11 PM | #599
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Since there were multiple windows on the bridge, the HK units can blow up one or two to kill everyone on the bridge then blow open another window and casually walk in before the panel comes down. Gotta love magnetic boots.
But they can't get in before the panel drops down, the velocity is too strong. Yes magnetic boots but in order to move they have to walk, this involves lifting a foot up and moving it forward. Here in lies the problem, as soon as they lift that foot up and attempt to move it through the window the power of the velocity push it back and the droid is sent flailing backwards holding on to the vessel with one foot and looking kinda dumb. Because they lack magnetic tracks, getting inside while the air is pushing them back is impossible. And in case you thought this was the case, blasting open some windows before will not reduce the velocity when you blast open some more as the air is replenished instantly.

There are also some other problems that need to be overcome:

  • Breaking through the panels, they will be inches thick so heavy explosives will be needed, this will likely blow the bridge walls apart, leaving them exposed to attacks via multiple fighters, which only need to scatter fire in that general direction. The fighters will also start shooting once the first detonation goes off.

  • If anyone survives the initial blast (e.g. Sith) they may very well transfer control of the bridge or shut it down completely, that latter can be done remotely, forcing the HK units to hack it and buying the Sith more time to intervene.

  • Emergency protocols will be in place for this kind of attack. Which will likely involve rapid response droid teams being dispatched to the bridge. Were talking assaults droids equipped with powerful deflector shields and blaster cannons. And magnetized of course.

  • If the HK units manage to overcome all this, they still have hundreds of Sith fighters to deal with which could potentially cripple the vessels or do serious damage to the now exposed bridge and HK's aboard it.

  • Malachor V will also still be protected by a web of dormant fighters spread across the debris, which Traya would likely have opted to remain in place in case the attack on her fleet was a distraction.

  • Due to the time it will take to outfit several freighters with stealth tech, transport HKs and equip them with disruptor rifles, and capture Bao-Dur and convince/force him to reactivate the MSG. Traya will already have struck at G0-T0's Exchange bases on Nar Shaddaa and Telos IV. To which it will take his commandeered fleet roughly 2 days to respond to (travel time in planets.)

  • Those smugglers and bounty hunters riled by Traya's attacks on Nar Shaddaa may end up attacking G0-T0's commandeered vessels if they drop out of hyperspace above Nar Shaddaa.

For these reasons it would be better to tailor the attack to sabotage rather than commandeering. Instead of trying to access the bridge the droids could simply attempt to blow it up. Attaching, say, thorium charges or something more powerful to the bridges and destroying them. Traya would have no means of repairing them and these vessels would effectively be taken out of the picture, giving G0-T0 a greater chance of winning.

P.S. The sith assassins wield force pikes, not metal sticks, their vibro-tipped edges are capable of cutting through thin durasteel - these can be used to cut through at the edges and deactivate the force fields, either that or overload them with grenades/mines.

And how is G0-T0 going to fake his death? Blow up his own yacht?

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.19.2013 , 03:54 PM | #600
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And how is G0-T0 going to fake his death? Blow up his own yacht?
Even if Traya knows what G0-T0 looks like (does she? 'Cause if not this is a TON easier) he has plenty of droids that look exactly like him. He could easily send one of them in a doomed assult or just have it be assassinated. If she doesn't know what he looks like, and only knows he's a droid, G0-T0 could be "revealed" to be any droid under the stars.

Faking his own death would mean no more threat from Exchange bosses that think he no longer exists and he now has the element of suprise. He would still keep in touch with his Gand, Ubese, Zhug Brothers, HK-50s, etc, but now all of his rivals think he's out of the picture.

This creates the power vaccum I was talking about, making Nar Shaddaa a very chaotic and dangerous place to be. Traya's efforts would be disrupted by the lack of structure and the lack of information on G0-T0, who is "dead."

Getting rid of his Exchange goons doesn't really hurt G0-T0 at all. He has plenty of credits to do what he needs to and with the forces closest to him he is more than capable of taking down Traya. He could just buy/gather what supplies and tech he needs, pretend to die, then strike at Traya without having to worry about his schemeing allies.


*Does a little dance for post 600*
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?