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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.14.2013 , 12:13 PM | #381
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I am deeply confused, I fail to grasp the logic behind this argument. Warren Stride and others claim that the general underworld population want anarchy and freedom. But who's the organisation that's set up a quasi-planetary government and enforcing a semi-authoritarian dictatorship on Nar Shaddaa? The Exchange. The organisation that's turned the Refugee Sector into a military state, the organisation that seems to have a droid version of the Gestapo covering the planets surface, the organisation that's terrorizing freight ships, the organisation that's aggressively carved a chunk of territory out the moon and subjugated and destroyed anyone who has stood in their way. How exactly is the Exchange promoting anarchy and freedom? Why would anyone actually want the Exchange around?
Well.... anarchy is the state of no law...

The Sith and the Republic put up laws. They enforce them and step on the toes of everyone who tries to break them. Criminals (hense their name) have to deal with these laws. But if the Sith and Republic are gone, no more rules and no more government.

Now, there's a difference between anarchy and total lack of structure. Say G0-T0 is some gang. He's fighting with every other gang in New York (Nar Shaddaa). The police (Traya) shows up. Who's the bigger enemy? G0-T0 and his gang, or the police?

Now say the police were removed from the equation. Traya is dead, and all the laws *POOF* into thin air. What happens to the gangs? They all expand and their business goes through the roof. They rule the streets, they rule the city. Will there still be gang fights? Of course. But every single gang is better off regardless.

So now there's only one unit of police left in the entire U.S. (galaxy). And they're cracking down on one gang. Hard. However, the police are taking losses themselves. Finishing them off means unlimited power for the gang leaders. Do they keep fighting their petty wars, or do they take advantage of this oppertunity to rid themselves of the law that binds forever?

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Rather strangely Warren lists 'power vacuum' as a negative effect of the Exchange's downfall. And yet power vacuum effectively means, power up for grabs. All of a sudden that territory that use to belong to the Exchange now belongs whoever-get's-it-first, all of a sudden countless Exchange bases stocked full of weapons, credits etc. are vulnerable and all of a sudden the Exchange no longer have a monopoly on the Black Market.
The Exchange will not die with G0-T0. G0-T0 will die. Then everyone will be fighting for his spot. It no longer is a conflict with G0-T0, but a conflict with each other. The underworld becomes a much more dangerous place when everyone's gunning for the top dog spot. Assassinations will be much more common. Everyone will look over their shoulders every waking moment. The Exchange members know this will happen.

This is why I say that Traya can choose one Exchange underling to manipulate. If she supports all who want to bring G0-T0 down, they'll see the power vaccum forming and be unwilling to submit themselves to the bloodshed that will ensue. However, this works both ways. If Traya supports one Exchange underling, the others will deny his bid for power and rally behind G0-T0, hoping that one day they'll be the ones to take the droids place, not this guy choosen by the Sith.

The last time G0-T0 disappeared it created a power vaccum. Who would take his place? There was no clear person who would take his spot. The internal conflict and the lapse in organization led to a downturn in crime (in otherwords the economy) on Nar Shaddaa for years. [From G0-T0/The Visionary's Wookieepedia page]

*By "support" I mean promise G0-T0's position.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And of course there's the big question: what choice will Exchange members have if Traya threatens them with a lightsaber?
None. You're right, they'll have to support Traya. At least for the time she has them at lightsaber point. But remember, these people are sly. If they don't want to bend to Traya's will, they won't. They'll act in their best interest, and if that means slipping away in the middle of the night or playing double agent, they will. And Traya's going to have a harder time finding these people than it seems. Remember the Jekk'Jekk Tar? Yeah, these more important figures are holed up tight.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.14.2013 , 12:19 PM | #382
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
NOTE: Lets get some proper scenarios out guys, at this stage in the Kaggath how is G0-T0 going to kill Traya and how is Traya going to kill G0-T0?
Well, I don't really know how to completely summarize the Malachor assualt, but it's definately a way G0-T0 could kill Traya. And it's pretty quick to put together, which means G0-T0 will have first strike. For pretty much all of Traya's attacks to pan out, she has to win/escape Malachor.

The first strike factor alone is a pretty powerful advantage for G0-T0.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.14.2013 , 12:26 PM | #383
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Well, I don't really know how to completely summarize the Malachor assualt, but it's definately a way G0-T0 could kill Traya. And it's pretty quick to put together, which means G0-T0 will have first strike. For pretty much all of Traya's attacks to pan out, she has to win/escape Malachor.

The first strike factor alone is a pretty powerful advantage for G0-T0.
I see you are assuming that if Traya decide to set up fortress at the Trayus Academy that means she has almost already lost, I disagree entirely, if she parked her fleet outside of Malachor's pull, no way is some ragtag band of Mercs going to break through that blockade, Nine Interdictors and the Ravager with over a hundred Sith fighter wings vs said ragtag band? yeh good luck with that.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.14.2013 , 12:30 PM | #384
OK, your argument is based on two assumptions however:

  1. The Kaggath format has an impact on the general state of the galaxy, I'm afraid it does not, the rules only have effect on the combatants. Notice 'for the sake of argument'. Their non existence is only to make the debate easier for us, it cannot be stretched to the extent your suggesting.

  2. The underworld will view the Sith as 'the police'. If Traya only strikes at the Exchange they may (perhaps naively) believe that the Sith will leave them alone once their done with the Exchange. Or they may view them as 'the army', those guys whom you just want to stay out of their way because rallying against them = death.

However again, your arguments all well and good but useless if you don't apply it to the Kaggath. I don't see much benefits of G0-T0 having the support of the general underworld population, there's not much they can do.

So lets move on to the 'power vaccuum', the very fact that G0-T0's death would cause a battle for power implies that the underlings want that vaccuum and want to take advantage. Crimelords aren't going to shy away from a little bloodshed and turf war, that's how they get power and influence, that's how the underworld works. And the likes of Visquis, Luxa and Canderous are examples of this. Especially Visquis, who's to say he won't betray G0-T0 for Traya?

However we must also refrain from using the term 'support' - force and subjugate are more appropriate terms. Traya isn't suggesting an alliance, she's going to go in their take what she wants and force the crimelords to do what she wants, then discard them. And if she has assassins surrounding them at all times, they will do what she says. Is the Shadow Collective not a perfect example of the abilities of a Sith to dominate the underworld? The Hutts and the Black Sun were powerless to resist, and they did not stab them in the back.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.14.2013 , 12:34 PM | #385
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Well, I don't really know how to completely summarize the Malachor assualt, but it's definately a way G0-T0 could kill Traya. And it's pretty quick to put together, which means G0-T0 will have first strike. For pretty much all of Traya's attacks to pan out, she has to win/escape Malachor.

The first strike factor alone is a pretty powerful advantage for G0-T0.
This has been discussed at great length (with me most perversely, arguing against Traya!) and my conclusion was the attack would succeed but Traya would escape alive. The reason behind this was the interdiction tactic, the mini-fleet would escape but at the cost of surprise. Traya would get wise to the assault and flee. Unless of course you have a solution to this problem.

Nor is it a quick attack to set up, G0-T0 needs to outfit an entire batch of freighters with stealth tech, have the droids produced/shipped/gathered and have them equipped with advanced weaponry and stealth generators. Oh and they have to find Bao-Dur and convince him to help them.

But still, destroying Malachor V is if anything a major blow to her powerbase.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.14.2013 , 12:35 PM | #386
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I see you are assuming that if Traya decide to set up fortress at the Trayus Academy that means she has almost already lost, I disagree entirely, if she parked her fleet outside of Malachor's pull, no way is some ragtag band of Mercs going to break through that blockade, Nine Interdictors and the Ravager with over a hundred Sith fighter wings vs said ragtag band? yeh good luck with that.
Cloaking devices. And before you say Force sense, droids.

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
03.14.2013 , 12:37 PM | #387
what is it with you people that think Traya ever needs or uses a fleet to do her bidding?

please remember G0-T0 is essentially a computer fooling several criminal sydnicates and his only real assets are thugs, underground economy, and HK-50s

please remember one of Kreia's signature moves is recruiting enemies, fallen and living, to do her bidding.

G0-T0's identity had always been in question by the mercenaries he employs, except the HK-50 droids. Kreia could very easily persuade some if not all of the non-droid forces to turn on G0-T0.

Remember that it is stated in TSL that G0-T0, while he does understand galactic politics and economics, the Force is still a greater mystery to him. The Force is Kreia's ally, and she is the bigger deceiver between the two.

Just throwing it out there.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.14.2013 , 12:42 PM | #388
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Cloaking devices. And before you say Force sense, droids.
You're going to get cloaking devices working on all those freighters, no matter how small? this isn't NJO, we don't have StealthX's here there and everywhere, I would LOVE to see you guys explain how G0-T0 is getting that much Stealth tech working on that many ships and better yet how they're going to pilot, whilst cloacked, through the orbit of Malachor V itself without a single ship making as much as a noise, there is a chance sure, but highly unlikely.

And I would love an explanation as to how you're going to get that many cloaking devices on that many ships working without failure when at the times of the Old SIth Wars stealth tech as a whole was basically in it's prototype stage as explained in the New Essential Guide to Warfare.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.14.2013 , 12:45 PM | #389
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
However again, your arguments all well and good but useless if you don't apply it to the Kaggath. I don't see much benefits of G0-T0 having the support of the general underworld population, there's not much they can do.
I don't really understand how Traya forcing Exchange people to do stuff for her relates to this Kaggath either then. There's not much they can do.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
So lets move on to the 'power vaccuum', the very fact that G0-T0's death would cause a battle for power implies that the underlings want that vaccuum and want to take advantage. Crimelords aren't going to shy away from a little bloodshed and turf war, that's how they get power and influence, that's how the underworld works. And the likes of Visquis, Luxa and Canderous are examples of this. Especially Visquis, who's to say he won't betray G0-T0 for Traya?
This is exactly my argument. I'm not saying people don't want G0-T0 out. I'm saying one lone person will act against him, they certainly won't team up to take him down. Luxa = one person. Canderous = one person. Visquis = one person. So Traya could get one person to try and off G0-T0, but these Exchange people (wait, who exactly are these Exchange people?) most certainly won't all be working together to get him out of power.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Is the Shadow Collective not a perfect example of the abilities of a Sith to dominate the underworld? The Hutts and the Black Sun were powerless to resist, and they did not stab them in the back.
Except by controlling Exchange people they will only be hurting their own organization. The Hutts and Black Sun had something to gain. If Maul had tried to gets Hutts to take down other Hutts, it would have gone differently.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.14.2013 , 12:48 PM | #390
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
This is exactly my argument. I'm not saying people don't want G0-T0 out. I'm saying one lone person will act against him, they certainly won't team up to take him down. Luxa = one person. Canderous = one person. Visquis = one person. So Traya could get one person to try and off G0-T0, but these Exchange people (wait, who exactly are these Exchange people?) most certainly won't all be working together to get him out of power.
Except you don't need multiple people, you need one person with a way to track down G0-T0's ship, hell it might not even need to be Exchange, it could be any one of the Bounty Hunters that have actually walked into his Yacht before.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order