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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

Canino's Avatar


Canino
03.05.2013 , 07:06 PM | #221
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
If we assume G0-T0 considers Traya to be a threat to the survival of the Republic, then he's not going to be interested in capturing her, he'd be out to "delete" her.

I think it should also be pointed out that while the Gand in the Jekk Jekk Tarr got beaten into the ground, it's unlikely that all the Gand of that nest would be that easy to beat.

Additionally it appears G0-T0 may actually have a way to track down Traya...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gand

She's not the only one that can potentially see into the future...
Nice find! Never even thought of that. And way to rally G0-T0 supporters!!!!
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
03.05.2013 , 07:12 PM | #222
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
The New Essential Guide to Weapons and technology, pg.22.
.
Which is on the same page...I can't read it, cause I don't have the book...but I still am skeptical on this there has to been some words that got mixed up or something.

Quote:
You do realize that if she used the mass shadow generator and G0-T0 manages to escape Nar Shadda's destruction, that Traya will have just given G0-T0 an army.

Fear is one thing, but Traya would turn fear of getting killed into a rage of wanting vengence on her. Not every smuggler or bounty hunter is on Nar Shadda, but it's rather likely that many of them have been to Nar Shadda, and may also know people whom died due to her madness.
This has to do with what of what I am trying to figure out?
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.05.2013 , 07:15 PM | #223
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
Nice find! Never even thought of that. And way to rally G0-T0 supporters!!!!
Which also raises the possibility that G0-T0 might not even be on Nar Shadda when Traya blows up the moon.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.05.2013 , 07:21 PM | #224
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Which also raises the possibility that G0-T0 might not even be on Nar Shadda when Traya blows up the moon.
She won't because she doesn't want to create a wound in the Force, seeing as she uses it and pretty much adores it (it's how she sees, after all) at this time. End of story.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.06.2013 , 04:29 AM | #225
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
Distracting him won't work. He is a droid, create to calculate everything at once. He sends Hk's out to kill Traya, while more investigate the MSG, while more do this..... Plus BH's, plus his army, plus the underworld. Not much gets by him.
G0-T0 isn't omniscient, he can't "calculate everything at once". He is designed to make economic calculations based on known variables, he's not very good at extrapolating without information. And he has almost no information on Jedi/Force users, as he expressed to the Exile. The motivations and abilities of Force users are fairly mysterious to him. He wants to find Jedi, but only because his analyses indicate that Force users have significant impact on galactic stability. His forces are not trained or prepared to capture force users, just because he's posted a bounty for Jedi doesn't mean his bounty hunters will be better prepared to face them.

If anything, Force users have been made even more mysterious by their increasing scarcity in the galaxy. His droids are not specifically outfitted to fight against Sith, anymore than they're outfitted to fight anything else.


Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Which is on the same page...I can't read it, cause I don't have the book...but I still am skeptical on this there has to been some words that got mixed up or something.
I don't think it's really relevant as to exact technical specifications of the Interdictor cruisers. The fact of the matter is, they're among the best warships in the time period, and G0-T0 doesn't have anything that can really make a dent in the Sith Warfleet.

There's also nothing to prevent Traya from using the Interdictors defensively. By setting up gravity well generators around Malachor V, she would force any scouts from G0-T0 to exit hyperspace far from the planet, making it easy to intercept and destroy them before they have a chance to land. This would blind G0-T0 to the movements of Traya's forces and also make it considerably harder for any assassins to land on the planet.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.06.2013 , 04:47 AM | #226
Wow, there are a lot of incorrect speculations concerning Traya. I mean a lot. First of all I'd ask you to read my indepth on Kreia. And then I'd ask you to temporarily disregard all the nonsensical statements you have made on Traya until I have the time to educate you. In a nutshell, everything you have said about her is wrong, all of you.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.06.2013 , 04:52 AM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Wow, there are a lot of incorrect speculations concerning Traya. I mean a lot. First of all I'd ask you to read my indepth on Kreia. And then I'd ask you to temporarily disregard all the nonsensical statements you have made on Traya until I have the time to educate you. In a nutshell, everything you have said about her is wrong, all of you.
I mean, if we want to complain about Traya acting out of character, Kaggath is not her style at all. She's not the sort to let her enemy know she's coming. She spent the greater part of her career as a Sith Lord making sure no one knew she was a Sith Lord.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.06.2013 , 06:44 AM | #228
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Wow, there are a lot of incorrect speculations concerning Traya. I mean a lot. First of all I'd ask you to read my indepth on Kreia. And then I'd ask you to temporarily disregard all the nonsensical statements you have made on Traya until I have the time to educate you. In a nutshell, everything you have said about her is wrong, all of you.
If this thread is what you mean:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...ighlight=kreia
Then there was nothing in there that made me go "Oh my God I was so WRONG!"

EDIT: Oh, this one?
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=606724

I'm just putting it out there that I didn't see Traya's motivations like that at all. She was trying to destroy the galaxy after she was betrayed by Sion and Nilius. She was cut off from the Force, and then realized that she hated it and wanted to end it. Through the Exile. While she was a Sith, although she sought allies in wounds of the Force, it makes no sense that Traya would attempt to end it. As the Lord of Betrayal, the Insidious Force must have been right up her alley.

I'm not sure how this pretains to the debate, seeing as if Traya did want to end the Force during her time as Sith, that only furthers the argument that she would not use the MSG, seeing as she did not at any other time.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.06.2013 , 01:21 PM | #229
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
G0-T0 isn't omniscient, he can't "calculate everything at once". He is designed to make economic calculations based on known variables, he's not very good at extrapolating without information. And he has almost no information on Jedi/Force users, as he expressed to the Exile. The motivations and abilities of Force users are fairly mysterious to him. He wants to find Jedi, but only because his analyses indicate that Force users have significant impact on galactic stability. His forces are not trained or prepared to capture force users, just because he's posted a bounty for Jedi doesn't mean his bounty hunters will be better prepared to face them.

If anything, Force users have been made even more mysterious by their increasing scarcity in the galaxy. His droids are not specifically outfitted to fight against Sith, anymore than they're outfitted to fight anything else.



I don't think it's really relevant as to exact technical specifications of the Interdictor cruisers. The fact of the matter is, they're among the best warships in the time period, and G0-T0 doesn't have anything that can really make a dent in the Sith Warfleet.

There's also nothing to prevent Traya from using the Interdictors defensively. By setting up gravity well generators around Malachor V, she would force any scouts from G0-T0 to exit hyperspace far from the planet, making it easy to intercept and destroy them before they have a chance to land. This would blind G0-T0 to the movements of Traya's forces and also make it considerably harder for any assassins to land on the planet.
HK 50s were designed to hunt down and kill Jedi, which means they could hunt down and kill Sith as well.

G0-T0 may underestimate Traya, that's entirely possible, but it is far more likely that Traya would seriously underestimate G0-T0.

1. The typical Sith Arrogance, even she wasn't immune to it.

2. She despised droids, but she also didn't consider them to be any real danger to her.

Fact of the matter is that G0-T0 is more apt to re-evaluate Traya's capabilities based on new information, than Traya is to revise her opinion of G0-T0's abilities.

Another thing to consider is that Darth Traya was not a military tactician and actual military confrontations were generally not her style either. She favored stealth and manipulation, which is all well and good, except she is facing an opponent that also likes using stealth and manipulation. If this fight revolves around stealth and covert style attacks, then we're looking at two opponents that are practically evenly matched.

If we get into actual military style confrontations, then Darth Traya is going to be in serious trouble. G0-T0 may not have been a military tactician, but he's good at tactical games and that can translate into being an effective general on the battlefield. G0-T0 is capable of learning tactics fairly rapidly (all he has to do is raid the databanks of a military archive), I suspect that there will be some military confrontations eventually.

The key thing to remember is that Traya isn't an effective leader, she even admitted as much to the Exile. G0-T0 proved himself as being an effective leader by running the Exchange, what's more he demonstrated he is an effective manager. While Darth Traya may have the military advantage early in this fight, I don't see her keeping that advantage for very long. The Exchange was probably on par with Prince Xizor's Black Sun as a criminal organization. So it wouldn't be surprising if G0-T0 would manage to acquire combat capable vessels, even capital ships eventually. What give G0-T0 an even greater advantage is the fact I don't recall Traya having any military tacticians for underlings (Sion was like an angry club, and Nihilus was just like a walking WMD). A good military commander can offset having a disadvantage in military hardware, especially when you are up against someone that is not very good at leading forces on a battlefield.

Personally I see G0-T0 pulling a disappearing act early on, and gathering resources to build his own ships that are capable of taking on Traya's ships. I could also see G0-T0 potentially setting up secondary HK factories, if he had to. Traya doesn't exactly have the resources of the Sith Empire, so it is plausible G0-T0 could assemble enough ships to take on Traya's forces in a reasonable amount of time.

I don't remember Traya's assassins to be skilled in slicing, demolitions, and picking locks either which seriously curtails stealth abilities.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.06.2013 , 01:31 PM | #230
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
If this thread is what you mean:
I'm just putting it out there that I didn't see Traya's motivations like that at all. She was trying to destroy the galaxy after she was betrayed by Sion and Nilius. She was cut off from the Force, and then realized that she hated it and wanted to end it. Through the Exile. While she was a Sith, although she sought allies in wounds of the Force, it makes no sense that Traya would attempt to end it. As the Lord of Betrayal, the Insidious Force must have been right up her alley.

I'm not sure how this pretains to the debate, seeing as if Traya did want to end the Force during her time as Sith, that only furthers the argument that she would not use the MSG, seeing as she did not at any other time.
Of course its partly subjective, but there are several flaws with that line of thinking.

  • Firstly Traya learned to hate the Force from the teachings of Malachor V, not due to her betrayal (so she would in fact want to use the MSG generator):

    ...On the surface, Kreia found Darth Revan's former stronghold, the Trayus Academy, an ancient dark side praxeum that contained the deepest and most intimate secrets of the Sith...The Sith sorcerers claimed that they had privileged insight into secret realities, arguing that even though the contradictory and aimless nature of existence appeared obvious to all intelligent beings, awareness of the Force exposed this obvious "fact" as a lie, further stating that the Force betrayed Force-sensitives, making them live in a compromised, chaotic universe—to live the lie. As much as she wanted to denounce them and their arguments, she fell under their seductive spell, and became Darth Traya, the Lord of Betrayal. ~ Wookieepedia, sourced from Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

  • If Traya wanted to destroy the galaxy, then doing nothing would be a surefire way of achieving that. She remarks on multiple occasions that if Sion and Nihilus are allowed to live they would destroy the galaxy and consume all life, and this is true.

And to correct the various fallacies that I have encountered:

  • She did not use the Exile to destroy the Force (clearly through the fact that the Force still exists) - this stuff about creating Force bonds across the galaxy? That is somewhat baseless and likely untrue. Also if this is the case, then why is Traya so satisfied when the Exile defeats her? And why does she say nothing of this grand plan? We only have the word of Atris, and even she speaks nothing of exploiting bonds.

  • Traya was not suicidal, again may I point out the Traya's death had no effect on the Force so that makes no sense whatsoever. Traya wanted the Exile to kill her so she could complete her training and sever the Force bond - like she says. Traya randomly killing herself is going to do diddly squat.

  • Traya doesn't adore the Force /sigh:

    "Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost."

    "I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it."


    Yes she uses it, but I have no doubt she'd be willing to give it up - even if it cost her her sight.

I realise that there are certain elements that are open for debate but to avoid getting sidetracked I'm going to call my version K-Canon (). But if you do want to have this debate then hope on over to my thread, here.

P.S. Don't believe everything you read on Wookieepedia, especially concerning Traya. If its not backed up by a source then its speculation, and if the source is KOTOR II then find the direct quote because its all open to interpretation. Before you make a statement about Traya, find some solid evidence to back it up - that is all.