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An in-depth look at: Malak


Blackholeskipper's Avatar


Blackholeskipper
02.25.2013 , 04:38 AM | #41
Spoiler


Yea, same for me. It was the ending I wanted. Revan would have been robbed of his victory if Malak had died while in denial. Better that he knew the truth.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.25.2013 , 03:30 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackholeskipper View Post
Yea, same for me. It was the ending I wanted. Revan would have been robbed of his victory if Malak had died while in denial. Better that he knew the truth.
Indeed, what I find saps the satisfaction out of victory is when your opponent refuses to accept defeat - well said.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.25.2013 , 03:52 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Indeed, what I find saps the satisfaction out of victory is when your opponent refuses to accept defeat - well said.
Indeed. Whenever I see a Sith refuse to accept defeat, it makes them pathetic. It's like 'Dude! You lost. Get over it.' This of course refers mostly to the lot of Sith I encounter on TOR or the KOTOR games (like Sion or Draggh).
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.27.2013 , 09:27 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
What did Kun achieve? Nada.
Return of the Sith through fallen Jedi, the establishment of the academy on Korriban, The reignition of the Sith Wars, the deaths of both Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr(the two most powerful Jedi of their whole lives), the fall of Jedi who all had extreme potential and would've been a far more solid foundation for the Order than those weaklings they called the Jedi Masters from the Mandalorian Wars to the Dark Wars, he also is the reason the Jedi became so strict and blinded by their own light that they failed to realise how corrupted they themselves had become due to the rise of the Sith that Kun's reign brought about.

The mass destruction of Republic space that took till after the Dark Wars to finally start healing, the beginning of the fall of that incarnation of the Jedi Order, making a prime target for the Sith Empire, the introduction(or perhaps reintroduction) of saberstaff combat to the Sith, the fall of the Sunrider and Qel-Droma families who were almost the Skywalkers of their day, the mass paranoia and the weakening of the Order as a whole.

Not to mention that without Exar Kun the idea of the Sith as anything more than the Sith Empire wouldn't have happened and it becoming a belief would not have come about either.

Also let's not forget that because of him the Terentateks and numerous other Sith spawn were let loose across the galaxy, reintroducing Sith sorcery and Sith alchemy to the galaxy before the return of the Sith Empire 340 years later.

He also planted the seeds of the Dark Side in numerous students of the Jedi Praxeum, of which nearly half fell to the Dark Side because of his taint on Yavin IV and his meddling as a spirit(this was the beginning of Jacen Solo's turn to the Dark Side and the rise of quite possibly the most second powerful Sith Lord ever, Darth Caedus.

Exar Kun arguably being the third strongest ever, introduced the Dark Side to (again, possibly) the second most powerful Sith Lord ever, which was the last ditch effort for the Rule of Two continuing.

I don't understand exactly how that's 'nada'.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.27.2013 , 12:08 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I don't understand exactly how that's 'nada'.
Firstly, let me define what I meant by 'achieve' - to accomplish one's goals. The goal of a Sith is twofold, to achieve the destruction of the Jedi, and to uphold and continue the Sith Order.

In this sense Kun achieved 'nada' because he failed to destroy the Jedi or play any intentional part in their future destruction, and he failed to maintain the Sith Order. You say his actions caused the 'return of the Sith', and yet with Kun's death the Sith Empire collapsed and the Brotherhood of Sith were destroyed. The Sith 'returned' for a full 4 years and did not return again for another 40 years, in no part due to Kun's intentional actions - I would not call that an achievement.

Killing Jedi, no matter how powerful, is no achievement either. Because the action failed to destroy the Jedi Order which had recovered by the time of the Mandalorian Wars. They were shaken, yes, but it was not Kun's intention to shake them, but destroy them.

His crusade, while dealing a great deal of damage on Republic space, failed - it failed to achieve what the intention of the war had been, to destroy the Republic, the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. It was therefore a failure, not a success and not an achievement.

The rest of your points are simply unintended consequences of Kun's rule, they were not the goals he sought to accomplish and did little to help the Sith as a whole - they are therefore not his achievements, they are his effects. Neither did he leave a lasting legacy, he corrupted Kyp Durron but that amounted to nothing. Durron did not become Sith, he was merely a dark side pawn Kun used to wreak purposeless havoc on the galaxy - and was ultimately defeated.

You have also made several incorrect points:

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Not to mention that without Exar Kun the idea of the Sith as anything more than the Sith Empire wouldn't have happened and it becoming a belief would not have come about either.
If what your saying here is that Exar Kun was the first to have an Empire of only two Sith, a master and an apprentice, they you are partly mistaken. Firstly, it was not Kun, but the ancient Sith who bestowed the title of master and apprentice upon Kun and Ulic. And despite this they still treated one another as near equals. What's more, Kun personally trained multiple apprentices - an entire Brotherhood. So it was not much of a radical change, and one not implemented by Kun anyway - nor did he make any attempt to pass the knowledge on. It was not his achievement and a small one at best, the one we should attribute the Rule of Two to is Revan and Bane.
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
He also planted the seeds of the Dark Side in numerous students of the Jedi Praxeum, of which nearly half fell to the Dark Side because of his taint on Yavin IV and his meddling as a spirit (this was the beginning of Jacen Solo's turn to the Dark Side and the rise of quite possibly the most second powerful Sith Lord ever, Darth Caedus.
As far as I'm aware, Kun only corrupted two members of the Jedi Praxeum and merely fooled another into attacking Skywalker. Two is not half. Also, what part did he have to play in Jacen's fall to the dark side? My understanding was that he had a vision of the future which made him agree to become Lumiya's apprentice, it had nothing to do with Kun.

=================================

That is why Kun achieved 'nada' - because he failed to destroy, or play a intentional part in destroying. the Jedi Order. Nor did he succeed to uphold and continuing the Sith Order. He left no legacy, and with no legacy, when he finally died he was nothing.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.27.2013 , 12:29 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Firstly, let me define what I meant by 'achieve' - to accomplish one's goals. The goal of a Sith is twofold, to achieve the destruction of the Jedi, and to uphold and continue the Sith Order.

In this sense Kun achieved 'nada' because he failed to destroy the Jedi or play any intentional part in their future destruction, and he failed to maintain the Sith Order. You say his actions caused the 'return of the Sith', and yet with Kun's death the Sith Empire collapsed and the Brotherhood of Sith were destroyed. The Sith 'returned' for a full 4 years and did not return again for another 40 years, in no part due to Kun's intentional actions - I would not call that an achievement.

Killing Jedi, no matter how powerful, is no achievement either. Because the action failed to destroy the Jedi Order which had recovered by the time of the Mandalorian Wars. They were shaken, yes, but it was not Kun's intention to shake them, but destroy them.

His crusade, while dealing a great deal of damage on Republic space, failed - it failed to achieve what the intention of the war had been, to destroy the Republic, the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. It was therefore a failure, not a success and not an achievement.

The rest of your points are simply unintended consequences of Kun's rule, they were not the goals he sought to accomplish and did little to help the Sith as a whole - they are therefore not his achievements, they are his effects. Neither did he leave a lasting legacy, he corrupted Kyp Durron but that amounted to nothing. Durron did not become Sith, he was merely a dark side pawn Kun used to wreak purposeless havoc on the galaxy - and was ultimately defeated.

You have also made several incorrect points:

If what your saying here is that Exar Kun was the first to have an Empire of only two Sith, a master and an apprentice, they you are partly mistaken. Firstly, it was not Kun, but the ancient Sith who bestowed the title of master and apprentice upon Kun and Ulic. And despite this they still treated one another as near equals. What's more, Kun personally trained multiple apprentices - an entire Brotherhood. So it was not much of a radical change, and one not implemented by Kun anyway - nor did he make any attempt to pass the knowledge on. It was not his achievement and a small one at best, the one we should attribute the Rule of Two to is Revan and Bane.
As far as I'm aware, Kun only corrupted two members of the Jedi Praxeum and merely fooled another into attacking Skywalker. Two is not half. Also, what part did he have to play in Jacen's fall to the dark side? My understanding was that he had a vision of the future which made him agree to become Lumiya's apprentice, it had nothing to do with Kun.

=================================

That is why Kun achieved 'nada' - because he failed to destroy, or play a intentional part in destroying. the Jedi Order. Nor did he succeed to uphold and continuing the Sith Order. He left no legacy, and with no legacy, when he finally died he was nothing.
1.Kun's fall inspired the falls of every Jedi after him.
2.Kun is the first not associated with the Old Sith Empire to become a Sith Lord, he was crowned by Marka Ragnos' spirit as his successor.
3.His presence on Yavin IV left a taint that resounded in the Jedi Praxeum, something Luke left there purposefully so Jedi would be constantly tested by the Dark Side, as he was, Kun's spirit left an actual mark on every single student there, Luke says that's where he thinks Jacen's massive ego and lack of emotional control comes from.
4.He was the first Sith Lord to appear in the galaxy since the Hyperspace War, his lasting legacy was a very weak Jedi Order, a very weak Galactic Republic and the destruction of some of the most integral Jedi in the whole order.
5.There are a long line of Sith and Jedi who credit Kun with every war fought in the Old Sith Wars(Though these quotes were created before the whole TOR thing came about.).
6.By your logic, only around twenty Sith Lords ever did anything of significance.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.27.2013 , 12:57 PM | #47
  1. Where is your evidence of this? Revan was not inspired by Kun to fall to the darkside. That statement doesn't even make sense, you can't 'inspire' some one to fall.

  2. Key name there being Marka Ragnos, like I said this was not his doing but the doing of the ancient Sith before him. And there actions were wasted as the Sith were destroyed 4 years later.

  3. OK, I see your point. But this is an effect, not an achievement. Nor was it by any means the most primary factor for the fall of Jacen Solo, nor does it account for Jacen's power in the Force. Nor did Jacen achieve a great deal either.

  4. Being a novelty is not an achievement. His lasting legacy was not a weak Republic and Jedi Order, if they were weak how did they win the Mandalorian Wars? It was Revan who weakened the Republic and the Jedi Order. And again, that was not an achievement as it did not benefit the Sith in any way.

  5. Could you provide some quotes? Or just explain to me what Kun had to do with Revan's and Kreia's fall to the dark side.

  6. Correction, 28. Excluding Sith underlings. Oh and further correction, achieved something, not did something of significance. Many Sith did things of significance but they did not all do they successfully. Failures include: Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Malak, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Skere Kaan.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.27.2013 , 01:28 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
  1. Where is your evidence of this? Revan was not inspired by Kun to fall to the darkside. That statement doesn't even make sense, you can't 'inspire' some one to fall.

    "Kun's actions would resound through numerous Jedi after him, inspiring doubt of the powers that the Jedi had and helped grow a strong faith in the Dark Side of the Force as it shifted in the favour of the Jedi's fallen brethren." - Jedi Path.

    "The Exar Kun War shook the Order to it's core, doubt and the great weakening of the Jedi through his sole hand had made their powers moot in the view point of almost the whole galaxy. Few believed in the Order's ability to fight the Dark Side or protect it's Republic after being embarrassed by the Dark Lord's efforts....." - The Dark Side sourcebook.

    "The Dark Lords Kun and Qel-Droma were the cause of many Jedi having little faith in the Light Side and the Masters who preached it's code, Exar Kun had slain the very creator of the vaunted code, not only that, but he went on to destroy Ossus and slaughter the Senate in the very capitol of the Republic, where the Jedi were helpless, these actions brewed the belief in the Darker views on the Force. Revan and Alek in particular were fascinated with the story of how one lowly Padawan broke free of his chains and went on to become the most frighteningly powerful being the galaxy had seen in millennia." - the KotOR Campaign Guide.

    Darth Sion was actually created because of Exar Kun's direct influence.

  2. Key name there being Marka Ragnos, like I said this was not his doing but the doing of the ancient Sith before him. And there actions were wasted as the Sith were destroyed 4 years later.

    Exar Kun declared himself Lord of the Sith before his engagement with Qel-Droma and his crowning as Dark Lord by Sith spirits.

    Also, the Sith weren't destroyed at all, Sion remained, the Sith remained on Korriban, only the top dog's of Kun Sith Empire were killed or incapacitated, the Sith as a whole weren't destroyed at all.

  3. OK, I see your point. But this is an effect, not an achievement. Nor was it by any means the most primary factor for the fall of Jacen Solo, nor does it account for Jacen's power in the Force. Nor did Jacen achieve a great deal either.

    His plan in the first place was to corrupt the most promising students, kill Luke and rebuild his own body, Also Darth Caedus achieved a great deal, least of which was the Jedi Order being all but split from the New Republic and putting in place a government through his own death that Krayt and his One Sith took full advantage of years later by taking over.
  4. Being a novelty is not an achievement. His lasting legacy was not a weak Republic and Jedi Order, if they were weak how did they win the Mandalorian Wars? It was Revan who weakened the Republic and the Jedi Order. And again, that was not an achievement as it did not benefit the Sith in any way.

    The Republic's infrastructure was grievously damaged and the Jedi Order lost it's best people and family lines, after the likes of the Qel-Dromas, Sunriders and the best Masters besides those like Vandar, what powerful Jedi were left? Revan, Alek and the Exile? fantastic list, two went on to do as much damage as they fixed and the other one wasn't even recognised as a Jedi by the Order.

    Also, it provided an excellent target and stopped the advancement of them both because they spent so damn long rebuilding their space which was wrecked after the Dark Wars ended.

  5. Could you provide some quotes? Or just explain to me what Kun had to do with Revan's and Kreia's fall to the dark side.

    I provided quotes earlier. The Sith's return through Kun inspired the lack of faith and the weak outlook that everyone, including their own students had regarding the Order, it also completely inspired Revan and Alek to go and wage the war with the Mandalorians, whom themselves were manipulated into the war by the other Dark Lord in the galaxy.
  6. Correction, 28. Excluding Sith underlings. Oh and further correction, achieved something, not did something of significance. Many Sith did things of significance but they did not all do they successfully. Failures include: Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Malak, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Skere Kaan.


I think your idea of achievement and my own vary greatly.
Anyway, this thread is about Malak, not Exar Kun.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.27.2013 , 02:03 PM | #49
Thank you for supplying some evidence to support your argument, and you make a valid point. However we must make the distinction between 'achievement' and 'effect'. Achievement is the act of accomplishing one's goals, effects are simply the reverberations caused by those actions. Kun manly produced effects and little achievemwnt, he did not destroy the Republic and the Jedi as he had hoped and he did not intentionally leave a lasting legacy for the Sith e.g. do what Nadd and Sadow did, train a successor in 'spirit' form. He could have done this with the Jedi of Luke's Praxeum but instead his lust for personal power and self centered egotism drove him to simply use the Jedi as tools for his own return and revenge against the galaxy. If Kun had instead trained Kyp as the next Sith Lord, he may have had more success.

However, as you have proved, Kun did have positive effects on the Sith Order as a whole. By weakening the Jedi's morale he facilitated the rise of the Sith decades later. However these were unintended effects, and so cannot be perceived as achievements. So while I still believe Kun failed to achieve anything, I would agree that he had resounding positive effects for the Sith Order, albeit unintended. If he hadn't been so arrogant though he could have been so much more.

But yes, this thread is about Malak. However I think a comparison can be made, Malak's arrogance and lust of personal power was the reason he betrayed Revan, and conducted an ineffective campaign against the Republic and the Jedi. Basically what we can learn from this is self centered arrogance does not make for a good Sith. A desire for power of course is important, but a Sith must be able to see the 'greater power' - power for the Sith Order, not just themselves. Bane saw this, and that's why Bane was the most successful of them all.

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LadyKulvax
02.28.2013 , 05:06 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
*Insert excellent point here*
Whilst I fully understand your reasoning, I think you may be flawed on one point, only the Order of the Sith Lords saw a 'Grand Plan' or great vision for the Sith and whilst they were most certainly the best of the lot, I don't think by that much, by my estimation, the Sith Triumvirate and Darth Revan's Sith Empire both came just as close to eradicating the Jedi and enforcing the domination of the Dark Side as the Banite Sith did, were they as powerful? yes and no.

My point is that: 'Evil is a point of view' and so is 'achievement' as the Sith is concerned.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order