Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Grouping: ur doin' it wrong


Heezdedjim's Avatar


Heezdedjim
02.20.2013 , 07:27 AM | #1
This is supposed to be a game that "encourages grouping." Your loading screens encourage players to do it, you have a group finder for flashpoints and even planet runs, and you have this whole system of "social points" to reward people for running in groups. You also have two game-breaking problems that are destroying the "social" aspect of running in random groups. Either of these problems would be enough on its own; both together are going to be fatal to any enduring sense of "community" among players.

(1) REPAIR COSTS

Fixed, apparently, according to the latest Bioware post in the 115+ page thread about it. Thank you, Bioware!

(2) GROUP XP

You advertise grouping in the loading screens and state that people will gain "more XP" when running in groups. This is false for all but the trivial case of an entire group of people at exactly the same level. A group with as little as 2-3 levels difference between lowest and highest will nerf the XP of the lowest levels to almost nothing. This happens whether people are grouping randomly on planets for things, or getting randomly assigned to FPs through group finder. This is why people sit there on fleet hitting DECLINE DECLINE DECLINE all day; because they don't want to waste 45 minutes for 1/2 a bubble of XP, when they could get 1/2 a full bar from the same time and effort in a different group.

The solution to this is also simple: As long as the lowest member of a group is "green" to the highest member, all members of the group get the same XP from group activities that they would if running in a group of people all the same level as them. Higher levels get a bit less, obviously, and lower a bit more, based on the relative level of the content. But nobody can power level, and nobody will have their XP nerfed to nothing because someone is trivially higher level than them. You might need to adjust the assignment ranges for group finder FPs, or the "green range" among player levels, to make them all consistent.

LadyVix's Avatar


LadyVix
02.20.2013 , 07:46 AM | #2
Your lack of spelling skills in the thread title caused me to discount your credibility and question your intelligence, thus negating the effectiveness of the message you're trying to get across.

Journeyer's Avatar


Journeyer
02.20.2013 , 08:02 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Heezdedjim View Post
(1) REPAIR COSTS

Fix it now. This is not a hard thing to do
You... you do realize how that works, right?
You are billed repairs based upon the value of your gear. Wiping for content you're over-geared for thus nets you a loss. They are currently putting more credits out with the *potential* to take more back if you wipe. Similar balance as before (in terms of wiping cleaning out your winnings), with more potential reward.

If they reduce the repair costs, then they will simply need to make a quick reciprocal adjustment to the quantity of free credits that are pouring out of every gaping wound in every npc. Lower repair bill = lower mission rewards.

Did you not notice that when tfb rolled and repair costs went up, the number of credits from that Op became insane? I can wipe a dozen times in there and come out ahead.

Did you notice that when the newest world event and daily missions rolled, they drop a freaking ton of credits, as well as blue and purple items?

The group XP thing--that did always puzzle me. I've come to assume that what they mean is that the XP in a group is multiplied by the number of members in the group rather than divided among them. So you get the content done faster, with fewer wipes, but receive the same XP (unless you bring a 50 to smoosh your level 30 heroics).
I make useful, game-expanding suggestions.
Holorancor | Food! | Outfit Storage | My Career | Ultimate PvE Solution

Eldrenath's Avatar


Eldrenath
02.20.2013 , 08:09 AM | #4
I agree 100% on both points. Repair costs in particular. I don't run many dailies and don't enjoy working the GTN. In the past, this has never been a problem: repair costs were reasonable, and while I never had a lot of credits I always had enough to repair. The most I ever have on my main is around 500k, 3 wipes costs 15% or more of everything I have. I'm not interested in grinding dailies for credits, that's why I don't do it. I run ops weekly with my guild, but apart from that I'm a story player. I level alts and re-do the story.

Whereas I used to enjoy queueing in the group finder a few times a week if the mood for a FP struck me and guildies weren't avvailable, now I won't do it at all. I enter the group finder with a full (or at least mostly full) group of guildmates only. I won't random because I just can't afford it.

Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
02.20.2013 , 08:22 AM | #5
The group XP bonus, in this game and in the other MMO's I used to play, has always been presented poorly. What they SAY and what actually happens, while technically true, is misleading.

They SAY you get more xp in a group.
What they MEAN is in a group you can kill mobs faster, so you get more xp, over time, because you're killing more stuff than you could playing solo.

However, there is a slight reduction in xp per kill in a group, because the theory is that the quantity of kills will increase and overcome it.

Heezdedjim's Avatar


Heezdedjim
02.20.2013 , 08:28 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Darevsool View Post
What they MEAN is in a group you can kill mobs faster, so you get more xp, over time, because you're killing more stuff than you could playing solo.
There is nothing to suggest that's what they mean. They have referred in the past to a group XP buff, and there used to actually be one (you got more XP from all sources when running content as a group, just because you were grouped). That might still be the case, but the problem is that somewhere along the way the math got borked up to the point that the "anti-power-leveling nerf" far outweighs any group XP buff that applies. The problem is that the nerf hits so hard, and such a small level gap, that all it does is discourage normal grouping, by people who are all in the designated range for a given planet or instance. That's why it should just be removed as long as everyone in the group is within a designated range of levels, so that nobody loses out on anything by grouping up. If the actual group XP buff is still working, then so much the better. But right now, there is a flat out group XP nerf, which needs to be removed.

Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
02.20.2013 , 08:33 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Heezdedjim View Post
There is nothing to suggest that's what they mean. They have referred in the past to a group XP buff, and there used to actually be one (you got more XP from all sources when running content as a group, just because you were grouped). That might still be the case, but the problem is that somewhere along the way the math got borked up to the point that the "anti-power-leveling nerf" far outweighs any group XP buff that applies. The problem is that the nerf hits so hard, and such a small level gap, that all it does is discourage normal grouping, by people who are all in the designated range for a given planet or instance. That's why it should just be removed as long as everyone in the group is within a designated range of levels, so that nobody loses out on anything by grouping up. If the actual group XP buff is still working, then so much the better. But right now, there is a flat out group XP nerf, which needs to be removed.
I was referring to grouping with the same level players, or similarly leveled. Within 2-3 levels I haven't seen much of an xp nerf that you're referring to. A level gap, of say 5, yes, there is a BIG hit to xp. My opinion is that it's there on purpose to keep people from power leveling "lowbies" through stuff. I think it's a good policy to have.

Heezdedjim's Avatar


Heezdedjim
02.20.2013 , 08:39 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Darevsool View Post
I was referring to grouping with the same level players, or similarly leveled. Within 2-3 levels I haven't seen much of an xp nerf that you're referring to. A level gap, of say 5, yes, there is a BIG hit to xp. My opinion is that it's there on purpose to keep people from power leveling "lowbies" through stuff. I think it's a good policy to have.
Running with a 5-level difference in a group is not "power leveling." And the nerf kicks in at less level gap than that. But you might not have noticed it at all if you're always the highest level player in your groups. The typical level range for planets is 4-5 levels, and the FP auto-group range is even wider. This "policy" isn't solving any problem, it's just screwing people over who are playing the game exactly as its designed (not to mention people who are automatically assigned to groups for FPs, who have no control over what the range of the group is).

Power leveling is 50s dragging 10s through content. Or 40s and 20s. Even 30s and 20s. This "feature" is doing nothing to discourage that, and groups like that should result in everyone getting zero XP. That's not the problem that we're talking about.

Vandicus's Avatar


Vandicus
02.20.2013 , 08:40 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Darevsool View Post
I was referring to grouping with the same level players, or similarly leveled. Within 2-3 levels I haven't seen much of an xp nerf that you're referring to. A level gap, of say 5, yes, there is a BIG hit to xp. My opinion is that it's there on purpose to keep people from power leveling "lowbies" through stuff. I think it's a good policy to have.
There is, AFAIK, a group experience buff that increases the total experience per mob(this is still divided up amongst more people though). Fortunately, the player receives experience off of bonus missions completed by allies as well, and the easy ability to complete heroics makes grouping on an xp-basis well worth it(excepting this level range issue which I'm not overly familiar with).
Darasuum kote ner vode!
Darasuum kote Mando'ade!

Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
02.20.2013 , 09:30 AM | #10
I've played two MMO's before this. WOW (briefly) and Star Wars Galaxies. In each of those the same thing happens with XP in groups. I think it was actually worse in SWG.

Levels are FAR more important here than SWG, and a level difference of 5 is HUGE in terms of in game combat. At level 20 try killing 3 lvl 20 gold npcs and then, at level 25 (even wearing the same gear you had at level 20) try to kill those same 3 mobs. It is MUCH easier.

That is what I'm basing my opinions on.

Someone at the end of the planetary quests say at level 25, helping someone at the start of the planetary quests, say at level 20...the level 20 is going to get through everything much faster, but lose out on xp.

I think that's a fair trade.