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They warned/told us


Serris_Kell's Avatar


Serris_Kell
01.02.2012 , 02:09 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Illutian View Post
I would agree, and I stated that in beta when they (BW) threw up the quest survey. Another problem I think we're having is we know where all this goes (Galactic Empire); so we're probably thinking that this "True Republic" is the group that sees the corruption and will be the group that's [assumed to have] fled Coruscant at the end of Episode III; later becoming the Rebel Alliance.

What they should have done is actually had you go on a 'fact-finder' and in the end either decide to expose the senator (turn the real data over) or conceal it [for a price] and had over the agricultural data.


On a Side note:

Another point of "huh?"

is

**SPOILER**



On Taris (Consular Chain) you have the option of saving ONE person or the holocrons contain medical information that could be used to save MILLIONS.

The LS choice is to PUT THE INDIVIDUAL NEEDS OF ONE PERSON above the needs of many. Funny, even Yoda once said sacrifice is sometimes needed; just I just doomed potentially millions to agonizing death...for one person.
The Knight storyline has something similar. Save a single colony from attack by a Sith Assassin, or keep the pressure on an imperial intel agent and prevent him from getting the entirety of the Republic's superweapon research and passing it on to Darth Angral. Light side? Save the colonists. At the cost of the security of the entire Republic and trillions of lives.

Evil will always defeat good, because good is DUMB.

Karkais's Avatar


Karkais
01.02.2012 , 03:07 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Illutian View Post
I would agree, and I stated that in beta when they (BW) threw up the quest survey. Another problem I think we're having is we know where all this goes (Galactic Empire); .
The sith empire in TOR is not the same empire as in the movies. Its a completely different incarnation of the Sith order. In fact, I believe the republic will win this conflict.
"Their strength became my own. Their minds became my own. All flesh is my flesh. None move, save I will it. This is the rule the Sith were promised, and I have made it real!"
- From the codex of Karness Muur

Diora's Avatar


Diora
01.02.2012 , 04:07 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
While laws are made to protect what we call "civilization", sometimes it is necessary to break those laws (through legal means even) to attain proof of devious acts. This is illustrated by our own legal system where a court can order a search warrant. The search warrant negate the typical law.

The entire quest line is an example of poor story writing anyway. As a Jedi Consular, if I was there snooping at the documents that droid has - there isn't a security guard on Coruscant that would interfere with me as soon as he saw my status. Instead, he would probably mention to someone, but there wouldn't be a confrontation there as it were.

Understandably, the quest would have been difficult to write like that to be able to be completed by smugglers and troopers though.

On top of that, why on earth did I stun the droid when there was a security guard so obviously close by anyway?
I disagree. The fact that there is a thread debating these choices and whether they are LS or DS proves to me that it is BRILLIANT story writing. It makes us think, it takes us out of our comfortable good/evil niches, and makes the choices stick with us after they are done.

The medicine quest on Ord Mantell is another good one for debate. Save the kids or save the soldiers?

Tallian's Avatar


Tallian
01.02.2012 , 04:19 AM | #24
2 points after reading this thread.

1) Jedi are like paladins, they obey the law, but only so long as it doesn't conflict with their higher law, so will happily steal something in a situation like this, to make sure a greater evil is not being committed(ends justifies the means has been shown that it doesn't have darkside ramifications)

2) The Old Republic has been dead for 2 thousand years by the time Anakin is born, and its successor has been dead for 1000. Galactic history prior to the movies has followed a thousand year cycle, with a republic dying of corruption, and a new one rising from its ashes, every thousand years or so. The only thing that has remained fairly constant is the Jedi Order, and the fact that they support whichever republic currently upholds their beliefs(and they have changed sides because the republic stopped upholding them in a way the Grand Master of the Jedi Order agreed with).

TL;DR - don't compare anything to the movies, and Jedi morality is not legal morality.

BrigOrion's Avatar


BrigOrion
01.02.2012 , 08:49 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
Actually, the quest he is talking about had some weird mix up on the light/dark choices.

The light side choice is to take a fake pile of documents back to her and essentially "lie" to her.

The dark side choice is to expose the Senator.

Seems completely backwards to me - though I wish I had just refused to steal the documents after all. I was "fine" with "stealing" the documents to expose corruption. Subterfuge and information gathering typically involve "theft" at some point anyway, but to intentionally deceive through false information does not seem to be a "light side" perspective.
That's not the only one. There are other quests in this game where BioWare's sense of morality is completely incomprehensible.

MysticTrunks's Avatar


MysticTrunks
01.02.2012 , 09:03 AM | #26
The Jedi aren't above bending or breaking the law to get what needs done, done. Qui-Gon wasn't even above using the Jedi Mind trick to get his way. He used it on the Gungans, tried on Waddo, and one or two other times in Ep1 before he ate a lightsaber.

Jedi tend to do what is best in their judgement and often times things like a corrupt law or politician are just something to go around or over, not to let them get in the way.

Emshwiller's Avatar


Emshwiller
01.02.2012 , 09:15 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
Actually, the quest he is talking about had some weird mix up on the light/dark choices.

The light side choice is to take a fake pile of documents back to her and essentially "lie" to her.

The dark side choice is to expose the Senator.

Seems completely backwards to me - though I wish I had just refused to steal the documents after all. I was "fine" with "stealing" the documents to expose corruption. Subterfuge and information gathering typically involve "theft" at some point anyway, but to intentionally deceive through false information does not seem to be a "light side" perspective.
Within the context of the game, you speak with two NPCs and you are forced to make a
choice on which one of them you actually believe. Weirdly the symbols for lightside and
darkside already tell you what you should pick, if you're playing one of these sides.

I too wanted to expose the corrupt Senator but followed the game's choice for LS (there
is some buggy behaviour with Corso affection which gives -30 but in the quest summary
it is revealed to be +30).

As an old school D&D player I felt I was railroaded into a Lawful Good choice where
I clearly wanted to be Neutral Good or Chaotic Good.

The way to "fix" this quest would be to write in speaking to a third NPC who gives you
more information on which one of the first two NPCs was trustworthy. Alternatively, having
a few quests in the game where there would be LS and DS choices but without those guiding
symbols might make for interesting variation.


Emshwiller on Red Eclipse

Arell's Avatar


Arell
01.02.2012 , 09:26 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Nikoemos View Post
Spoiler


Aka, people are different
I guess he found another lady to obsess over. ^^

Yamaqasi's Avatar


Yamaqasi
01.02.2012 , 09:33 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Emshwiller View Post
.. Alternatively, having a few quests in the game where there would be LS and DS choices but without those guiding symbols might make for interesting variation....
Just turn "show LS/DS" off in the pref-menu, and you can just go on a guessing spree from 1 to 50.

Emshwiller's Avatar


Emshwiller
01.02.2012 , 09:43 AM | #30
Just recalled another quest which I couldn't quite follow the logic...

As a newbie Imperial Agent on Hutta, you are approached by starving
colonists to get some power units, or they will die. Sure, you say.

Then some other npc approaches you saying (basically) if you deliver
that power unit (...) my family will die.

Now you have two sob stories and if you choose for the starving
couple you get DS. If you lie to the starving couple and not give
them the power units, they will presumably starve... but you get
lightside points!

I'm beginning to notice a pattern within these quests. Whenever you
pick a conversation choice that makes you sound like a bad *** 80s
action hero, you get DS. It is not possible to walk through this game
with a Clint Eastwood attitude and scoop up LS points.

"Don't make me come back here." -- BOOM! 50 DS points.


Emshwiller on Red Eclipse
ps. Yamaqasi: thanks for the tip! Didn't know that.