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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
03.31.2013 , 10:38 PM | #681
Quote: Originally Posted by FuryoftheStars View Post
Sooo... Some straight, some gay, and some bi. We talk about accurately depicting the current state of society or reality in this game where romance is concerned, why is it that RL suddenly goes out the window when someone asks who should be SGR?
RL is irrelevant to both arguments.
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
03.31.2013 , 11:05 PM | #682
I figured knowing my republic character would have a chance to find love would give me the drive to finally play the Jedi Knight story. I'd never been able to go through with it before because having Kira at my side and not being able to see some of the content I'm most excited for is both disheartening and enraging.

But I figured, hey.. She might not be able to romance Kira, the one I'm most interested in, but at least she won't have to be in the lonely hearts club anymore. So I made a female Jedi Knight that I really like. She's cute and fiery, not to mention deadly. I bought her some cool adaptive armor, and bought her all the Class Mission XP boosts in her legacy.

I was playing her this weekend, and enjoying it quite a bit. She's really cool, and I was having a lot of fun. Then I got to the first moment where I'm looking at Kira and I know that if it weren't for my chosen gender, the conversation I'm having would have a lot more meaning. I had to stop.

I logged out, and now I'm once again staring at the character creation screen, trying to think of how I can make a male Jedi that appeals to me enough to not make me mad every time I look at him. I have to either miss out on one of the things I want to see most, or create a character that I'll always know is less cool (to me) than the one I want to make and could make, except that there's a stupid restriction in place.

I don't give a damn how realistic it is that I might pine after someone who doesn't want me back. It's just not freaking fun. "Oh, it's such a realistic story of a broken heart. It's so sad, not everyone can be with the one they love!" Screw that. If I want to feel sad I'll go read Schindler's List.

I should be okay with being short changed because you think it makes for a good story? I should sit on the bench and watch the privileged kids have fun because that's how life is? That attitude really ticks me off. I'm sitting here locked out of something I really want to enjoy and I should be cool with that because you think it creates a nuanced story? I'm sorry but no! I'm not cool with it!

I'm not going to be told I should be happy with my sad story of unrequited love while the other side gets to have their happy love story, just because while she can find it in her heart to love a human, twilek, cyborg, or even sith, making her able to love a woman at the same time as someone else's Kira loves a man is so "unrealistic".

If Kira wasn't able to be romanced at all, that'd be one thing. But I'm sorry, it's just not cool to sit there and know that if I'd made the "right" gender choice at character creation, I'd be enjoying the content I want to enjoy right now. That turns it into a really crappy choice, where no matter what I pick I'm not happy.

I'm invested in my characters, not coolly detached. That's the way I like it. That's what I get enjoyment out of. I'm vicariously living through some really cool characters, and I don't want to be held back in the same way I am in real life. "Sorry, she just isn't into you," is not fun and I don't appreciate you using the realism of sexuality as a way to bar me from enjoying what I want to enjoy.

Especially because your arguments are ignorant and baseless. There is no reason why it's bad story telling. That's really, really, really narrow minded. "Kira isn't gay, that's just the way it is!" Well it doesn't have to be the way it is. There's no good reason that has to be the way it is! She can be gay in my game and straight in yours, there is no compromise to our individual stories! Just like in your game the Jedi Knight might be a male Twi'lek and in mine she might be a female human, and in neither is the story compromised by that! The entire argument against it just makes no sense.

I'm sick of it! I try to be reasonable and nice. I try to spell everything out, explain the shortcomings of these arguments against fun on the basis of realism. But some people just don't get it. Well maybe this will get through. Maybe letting you see some of the passion I have for the subject will make you understand that it's more than just cold reason.

It matters! Yea, it's just a game, but story is a huge part of my life. I'm a writer. I listen to 5 to 10 books a month. I may have never climbed Everest, but I was there with Luke Skywalker when he made the trench run. This is where I find joy, and I won't be told that's not valid. So yea, it matters to me.

I could walk away from this story, there are hundreds of others just waiting for me. Even though Star Wars is a big part of my life, having been a creative inspiration from childhood... Even though I've been looking forward to this game for years.. Even though BioWare's methods of story telling, letting me put my hands in the creative muck and shape the story, is extremely appealing...

Even though all those things are true, I could walk away from it and take my disappointment and move on. But I've been strung along with promises. Besides, I don't want to walk away, I love this game and this story and the promise it offers just beyond the bend.

I'm not mad at BioWare, I'm disappointed. I'm mad at the people here trying to invalidate what I want to enjoy because they don't think it makes good story telling. People trying to tell me that I should be just as happy getting the opposite of what I enjoy just because they think it's more realistic. That's what makes me mad.

Whatever ends up happening with this game, fine. Life moves on. But don't sit there and try to tell me that I'm being unreasonable and that I should be fine with it. I'm not fine with it, and my reasons are perfectly valid.

LifeScourge's Avatar


LifeScourge
03.31.2013 , 11:08 PM | #683
Quote: Originally Posted by FuryoftheStars View Post
I'm... assuming that was directed towards me? I haven't said anything about the current setup being unfair. I am merely discussing the point of making all flirt-able NPCs bi.
But then how is that fair the artist who envisioned that character to be not be bi. Hell take it even further and say that there is only same sex flirts for certain NPCs, but to make EVERY NPC that is flirtable bi is not fair, not to the artist or the community. It's not logical, and not realistic. You can say this is Star Wars and none of it is real, but there is a sense of realism when it comes to the personalities of the NPCs in the game. The artists, designers, and writers have a vision to create, and it is THEIR vision.

If you want that kind of choice and creative, go play Second Life!
If you can't be a good example, BE A HORRIBLE EXCUSE!!!

"The only law in this galaxy is what a man makes for himself"
BH Powertech lvl 50

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
03.31.2013 , 11:20 PM | #684
Quote: Originally Posted by FuryoftheStars View Post
For me, personally, it breaks a level of immersion to know that every flirt-able NPC is bi.
It all boils down to this very basic failure to comprehend. They aren't necessarily bi! They might be, but it's just as feasible that, in your story they are gay, or straight, or whatever works for your story. What they do in Joe Schmoe's story has no bearing on who they are in yours.

Yes, the herosexual woman you flirted with on your female character could be straight in an alternate universe where your character is male, but that doesn't make her bi. It's another universe, entirely separate from the one you are experiencing, in which she's gay.

The "Your hero's story" doesn't make sense in an MMO? It's the only way it makes sense! Or do you think that security officer is really sitting there having pretty much the exact same conversation and asking for the exact same task to be done 1000 times a day? No, he has that conversation once, with your character, and that is the canon of your character's universe. In a parallel universe, someone else is having a similar conversation, and that is their hero's story.

There is a reason that by default, people of the same class can't exist in the same story instance. There is only one "Jedi Knight Hero", only one "Smuggler Hero" and so on. When you create a character, you determine who that hero is in your story. Those other knights and smugglers don't exist in your world. You can play with them for gameplay reasons, but as far as the story is concerned, they don't exist.

How else could you rectify anything in this game?

Aebrynis's Avatar


Aebrynis
03.31.2013 , 11:21 PM | #685
Quote: Originally Posted by LifeScourge View Post
But then how is that fair the artist who envisioned that character to be not be bi. Hell take it even further and say that there is only same sex flirts for certain NPCs, but to make EVERY NPC that is flirtable bi is not fair, not to the artist or the community. It's not logical, and not realistic. You can say this is Star Wars and none of it is real, but there is a sense of realism when it comes to the personalities of the NPCs in the game. The artists, designers, and writers have a vision to create, and it is THEIR vision.

If you want that kind of choice and creative, go play Second Life!
Their vision, yes, but also their bank books, their subscription numbers, their profit margin...you get the idea.

The folks at EAWare are doing this for money, don't kid yourself otherwise. They're hired to come up with the content, and they do what they're told. A writer of books writes what they wish, and the work will sink or swim on its own merits with the immutable content therein, but in a game, catering to the customer base is almost universally considered a good idea.

The answer is quite simple. Create character as normal, then before you enter the game, the very last step says "System will read character as *Male---*Female (pick one)". You constructed a female character, and all will see her as such. But the system, due to your last choice, will compute the game as having her being exactly the opposite, and NPC dialogue choices will be adjusted accordingly. I have no idea why they didn't figure this out, it seems so absurdly simple and inexpensive in its execution.

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
03.31.2013 , 11:25 PM | #686
Quote: Originally Posted by Aebrynis View Post
The answer is quite simple. Create character as normal, then before you enter the game, the very last step says "System will read character as *Male---*Female (pick one)". You constructed a female character, and all will see her as such. But the system, due to your last choice, will compute the game as having her being exactly the opposite, and NPC dialogue choices will be adjusted accordingly. I have no idea why they didn't figure this out, it seems so absurdly simple and inexpensive in its execution.
It's not that simple. What if I don't want my female character referred to as a man? What if she isn't cross gender, but gay? Am I supposed to be happy with my female character having a male voice? If not, what happens when we get to the romances and there are no lines recorded by the female voice actress?

Aebrynis's Avatar


Aebrynis
03.31.2013 , 11:48 PM | #687
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
It's not that simple. What if I don't want my female character referred to as a man? What if she isn't cross gender, but gay? Am I supposed to be happy with my female character having a male voice? If not, what happens when we get to the romances and there are no lines recorded by the female voice actress?
All very good points, but I, for one, would be willing to overlook all of them save for the very last. I concede that not having dialogue in the appropriate gender would be rather disconcerting and/or annoying.

It has been a long time, so I am not exactly sure where I heard (read) it, but according to this 'source', the dialogue for SGRA had already been recorded, and was simply not included (because EAWare was 'concentrating on delivering a polished introductory product' or whatever). I am in no way claiming that I was reading a true statement, but if it is true (though I know EAWare would never confirm it one way or the other), then I would imagine they'll have some irritated customers who put their game experience on indefinite hold while they fiddled around and essentially ignored threads like this. If I can find the locations where the already-recorded dialogue is discussed, I will pin it up here posthaste.

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
04.01.2013 , 03:17 AM | #688
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
I figured knowing my republic character would have a chance to find love would give me the drive to finally play the Jedi Knight story. I'd never been able to go through with it before because having Kira at my side and not being able to see some of the content I'm most excited for is both disheartening and enraging.

<snip for brevity>

I'm not mad at BioWare, I'm disappointed. I'm mad at the people here trying to invalidate what I want to enjoy because they don't think it makes good story telling. People trying to tell me that I should be just as happy getting the opposite of what I enjoy just because they think it's more realistic. That's what makes me mad.

Whatever ends up happening with this game, fine. Life moves on. But don't sit there and try to tell me that I'm being unreasonable and that I should be fine with it. I'm not fine with it, and my reasons are perfectly valid.
Bravo and exceedingly well-said.
::Please Stand By, Signature Assessment Probe Commencing Analysis::

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
04.01.2013 , 05:42 AM | #689
http://madsabroo.tumblr.com/post/467...w-tor-romances

Some interesting points raised about the romances in this game, specifically the author's interpretation of "assert male independence/dominance" with male companions and characters respectively.

I wonder if the SGR versions of those romances (let's assume for the sake of argument that all romance companions get SGRAs) would have the same strict independence and roles being defined by the Male Companion and a similar power dynamic being used by the Male Character.

And then you'd have the more submissive/chasing themes from the female companion and character.

These are where you are more likely to see a shift in companion personalities.

Ugh, I'll have to YouTube the romances soon to give more detail and evidence to support the claims in the blog post, just so that we can have a discourse about this which doesn't into "I need SCREENSHORTS".

And for the record, my Smug is 27 and we're both finding Corso a little insufferable.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
04.01.2013 , 07:01 AM | #690
Quote: Originally Posted by FuryoftheStars View Post
I'm... assuming that was directed towards me? I haven't said anything about the current setup being unfair. I am merely discussing the point of making all flirt-able NPCs bi.
Don't think so. The poster's post was deleted though, sooo, I could be mistaken, but I believe it was someone else.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry