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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.30.2013 , 01:49 PM | #651
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
No. It wouldn't make for a better story. It would make for an equally fleshed story told in a different way. Story quality is not the same as story form.
Or rather it comes out feeling like terribly written fanfic, and as someone who loves to read terribly written fanfic, I don't think that makes for a better game story.

Mind you, I'm of the opinion most players ignore the story anyways, or just catch glimpses of it. Seems to be the case for most MMOs ime.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Kioma's Avatar


Kioma
03.30.2013 , 01:53 PM | #652
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Or rather it comes out feeling like terribly written fanfic, and as someone who loves to read terribly written fanfic, I don't think that makes for a better game story.
Again, I disagree. Herosexuality is a way of presenting an interactive story and has no impact on story quality. Well-written content including herosexuality will still look well-written. Fan-fiction is not interactive and cannot be held to the same criteria.
::Please Stand By, Signature Assessment Probe Commencing Analysis::

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.30.2013 , 02:17 PM | #653
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
Again, I disagree. Herosexuality is a way of presenting an interactive story and has no impact on story quality. Well-written content including herosexuality will still look well-written. Fan-fiction is not interactive and cannot be held to the same criteria.
I guess this comes down to a matter of faith in the writers. You have it, I don't
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.30.2013 , 05:08 PM | #654
Something a more go-getting poster may want to do, is post a spoiler tagged list of all the SGR flirts and Hidden Chat Options to lead to SGR Flirts to stick in this thread or would it be best to start a new thread with that spoiler so it's easier to find for everyone?
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
03.30.2013 , 05:25 PM | #655
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I've never seen the companions able to change race. Where exactly do you see the companions changing races? Vette's designs are all Twileks, I've never seen her have a human species. Where exactly do you see people changing the species of their character?
Race, not species. There is a difference. Skin color might not carry much connotation in the Star Wars universe, but it certainly does in ours. If you argue that skin color doesn't have connotation in the SWU and that's why it's OK to be able to change your companion's race at will, I can then argue that sexual orientation should carry just as little connotation and be just as malleable.

The rest of your post is really irrelevant. More power to you if you want to experience a story set in stone the way it was envisioned. That's not what BioWare games are, though. Go read a book. I can recommend several, both in and out of the SWU, that are great.

BioWare games are about player choice and molding the story they are telling into the version of that story you want to hear. It's like a parallel universes thing. There's one timeline with a thousand different variations on the details.

No, it's not like changing the Dread Masters, because that would be a fundamental change to the story. Having a romance with Mako (to continue using her as the example) doesn't fundamentally change the story. That's already a part of the story in place, all I'm asking is not to be barred out of it based on my gender. Who I romance has no bearing on the storyline at large.

If you can provide me equal opportunity to find romance with SGR companions without using herosexuality, then more power to you. But guess what, that means you're gonna need to make a whole lot more companions. Giving me a character I don't like to romance in place of a character I adore on the premise that sexuality is immutable even on a meta-game level is unacceptable. So you would need to create companions of similar qualities to the ones that exist already, and make them SGR. It makes so much more sense to make the existing companions herosexual.

I do not play this game to pine after someone I can't have. I play it to channel the force, shoot lightening from my hands, swing a lightsaber, pilot a starship, conquer the galaxy, and get the girl. This game is a fantasy and I shouldn't be barred from a part of that fantasy just because of my preferred gender.

It's ridiculous that you would even make this argument. Companions are already herosexual. You can be any species, any race, any body type. You can be scarred and hideous, you can be the exact definition of what they consider a terrible person. None of that matters, you are the hero and as long as you're the right gender, they will love you. Drawing that gender line makes ZERO logical sense in the context of the game.

You can claim you don't think that companions should be so open to love with opposite gender PCs either, but once again, that's irrelevant. That isn't the game we are playing.

You seriously don't seem to grasp the concept of the story vs the meta-story. The story as you experience it IS the story. Just because a character would still love you if you were the same gender doesn't make them bi. They CAN be, if the writers decide to make that distinction, otherwise when you play through as opposite gender they are straight and when you play as same gender they are gay. It has no impact on the story. The characters are MECHANICALLY herosexual, but in the STORY they are just whatever sexuality fits into the way you play it out.

In Mass Effect if you don't romance Garrus or Tali they end up together. That doesn't mean if you romance one of them they will be pining for the other and going behind your back. It's just one way the story can unfold, and if you make choices counter to that path, it doesn't unfold that way.

Just like the second you choose a Dark Side option, that is what happened in your personal story. The fact that your buddy can choose a Light Side option when he plays has no bearing on your own version of the story.

My Mako can be gay and it can make absolute sense to my story. Your Mako can be straight and make absolute sense to your story. These two things do not conflict.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I guess this comes down to a matter of faith in the writers. You have it, I don't
That's ridiculous. They can handle all the other choice and variation in the story, but this one is out of their grasp? How do you draw that conclusion? Somehow they can write perfectly acceptable and compelling SGR romances if they make them new characters, but they wouldn't be able to handle it with existing companions? How does that even make sense?

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.30.2013 , 06:42 PM | #656
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
The rest of your post is really irrelevant. More power to you if you want to experience a story set in stone the way it was envisioned. That's not what BioWare games are, though. Go read a book. I can recommend several, both in and out of the SWU, that are great.
I'd have to say, you basically lost me right here.

So, since I see the game playing out as all the stories starting off at various point A1-A8, then all converging on point C. Thusly, tieing the story up into one universe shared by all, my opinion on how the game should go is completely terrible because...why exactly? o.O

By your logic, if you want to experience a game that doesn't have what you want in it, you should go experience another game. Now obviously, you don't want to. But because I like a storyline in what basically amounts to an EU of Star Wars, and like the idea of them setting things in stone as much as they can, while giving some wiggle room, I'm...some...bad...player?

Really, I have yet to see a storyline that is as free as people like to make out (I hear Agent does it the best, but still low level on my agent).

Maybe I'd see it differently if the game was set after RotJ, rather than ancient history *shrug* Still, basically lost me on that comment. "The whole 'this is how it should be because I like it this way instead of how you may like it, so go read a book instead'" feels very much like....*shrug*

Eh, doesn't matter, and really, "This is how Bioware does their games." is also lost on me, for I havent played the other Bioware games. But if we're basing TOR on how BW does their other games, then shouldn't all of what you said been in the game a year ago at launch, because that's just how BW does their game? Or do we start making exceptions to "How BW makes their games"?
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
03.30.2013 , 09:51 PM | #657
I've made my point, and I think it holds up to logic and the spirit of the game more than yours. I'm not going to keep explaining it repeatedly just because you either can't understand or willfully won't. I never said your gameplay preferences aren't valid or that they make you somehow terrible. That's you taking criticisms of your ideas personally.

I've explained how the spirit of the game is not one of a story set into stone. Even when you admit that the story should give "some wiggle room," you arbitrarily draw the line at sexuality. I've yet to see a good argument for WHY that ought to be the line.

Honestly though, I'm not trying to change your mind. That's not the point. If this were a private conversation, I wouldn't bother. My goal is just to provide a public rebuttal to arguments I find flawed. I'm bias of course, but I feel I've done that.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.30.2013 , 10:22 PM | #658
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
I've made my point, and I think it holds up to logic and the spirit of the game more than yours. I'm not going to keep explaining it repeatedly just because you either can't understand or willfully won't. I never said your gameplay preferences aren't valid or that they make you somehow terrible. That's you taking criticisms of your ideas personally.

I've explained how the spirit of the game is not one of a story set into stone. Even when you admit that the story should give "some wiggle room," you arbitrarily draw the line at sexuality. I've yet to see a good argument for WHY that ought to be the line.

Honestly though, I'm not trying to change your mind. That's not the point. If this were a private conversation, I wouldn't bother. My goal is just to provide a public rebuttal to arguments I find flawed. I'm bias of course, but I feel I've done that.
I have not. By wiggle room, I meant actions. I thought that was just obvious.

Now, if they made the companions less fleshed out, say you choose their names, you choose their looks, all when you meet them, where you put effort into creating them yourself then it makes things different.

For instance, let's say the game was set just after RotJ, and you get Han Solo as a companion, we know he's not SGR...or OGR for that matter, due to him ending with Leia.

If they in the RotJ era could see where Mako ended up, it should be roughly the same spot. Because she's become a named character as part of SW Lore.

Hmmm...for a MMO, BW really should have given more freedom to customize characters and companions.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
03.30.2013 , 11:08 PM | #659
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I have not. By wiggle room, I meant actions. I thought that was just obvious.

Now, if they made the companions less fleshed out, say you choose their names, you choose their looks, all when you meet them, where you put effort into creating them yourself then it makes things different.

*snip*

Hmmm...for a MMO, BW really should have given more freedom to customize characters and companions.
That would be wonderful, but also extremely difficult. I'd love to create my own crew, but how would that even be feasible? It's already weird no one ever says my player character's name, no one ever being referred to by name on my crew would be freaky. Plus, the characters would either have to be much more generic, or they would have to record a great deal of varied dialogue.

They already made their best stab at customized companions with the variety of customization items. That's what I was talking about being able to change races. (which again, is skin color, not species)

Quote:
For instance, let's say the game was set just after RotJ, and you get Han Solo as a companion, we know he's not SGR...or OGR for that matter, due to him ending with Leia.
We wouldn't get Han Solo though. We'd get a new companion that can take part of our adventures in the same way the ones we have now do. That would be like expecting us to have Zayne Carrick as a companion. Han Solo is one of the roles WE fill, or perhaps one of the characters we meet, but not one of our companions. Unless we were playing through the main saga, in which case we'd be Luke, and the details would be malleable because that is the nature of the game.

These are NOT characters with established histories and more importantly, with established sexualities. Your argument doesn't hold up.

Quote:
If they in the RotJ era could see where Mako ended up, it should be roughly the same spot. Because she's become a named character as part of SW Lore.
Okay, so the fact that Mako can either be in a relationship with the Hero or not when he's male is an okay variant, but it's not acceptable to allow her to be with the character if she's female? I'm sorry but all your reasoning is full of holes.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.31.2013 , 02:05 AM | #660
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
Okay, so the fact that Mako can either be in a relationship with the Hero or not when he's male is an okay variant, but it's not acceptable to allow her to be with the character if she's female? I'm sorry but all your reasoning is full of holes.
Not at all. I figure there's likely a prefered gender for all the classes too. According to threads on the subject, others do as well.

It's another one of those things where they make game play mechanics not fit the lore due to game balance. Like Lightsabers not acting like lightsabers. Or Jedi/Sith not being as dangerous as Jedi/Sith are suppossed to be in Star Wars.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry