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This is outta control


WaywardOne's Avatar


WaywardOne
12.30.2012 , 11:46 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Durasturan View Post
1. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
2. Ad hominem
3. False dilemma (bifurcation).
4. Non sequitur
All that this thread deserves because that's all it is attacking with.

Durasturan's Avatar


Durasturan
12.30.2012 , 11:52 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
If I took my computer to be repaired and was told it would be free, then charged for it, I would take my business elsewhere. If I choose to continue to use the same computer repair service, then I forfeit my right to complain, IMO.

Same theory applies to everything else in life, including this game.
That's not a valid analogy, your parts don't quite match up. For this theory to work you would have A. had to buy the computer from the repair shop in the first place. B. Have an ongoing account or service agreement (subscription package) C. Have the store honor part of the agreement but not the entire portion and D. Have a valid rationale for why arguing from the specific to the general is logically sound in this particular case as a generalized syllogism.

Here's the valid form you are looking for:

If I bought a computer from a company and they said they would service it for any hard drive or power supply problems and then when I took it in to have my hard drive and power supply fixed they said "sorry the PCU costs extra now."

What a concerned consumer would do is:
a. No longer buy computers from that retailer.
b. Since they will still service the PCU, take the PCU.

How, in this case, would forcing them to service the PCU as they agreed to force me to stop complaining about the parts of the agreement that they did not live up to?

Aizen's Avatar


Aizen
12.30.2012 , 11:53 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
Threads like these are great examples of how much of a joke these forums are. 10$ for 5 levels (new gear, new crafting recipes, new class abilities, etc.) and a new world is an outrage? Are you on welfare? If $10 xtra is traumatic for you then you need to get to work - pick up a paper route, shovel snow out of old people's driveways, mow lawns, get a job at McDonald's, "hang out" at cheap motels, etc.. Go! Serious gripes about this over and over in brand new thread after brand new thread... c'mon, you're destroying any credibility these boards ever might have had.
One could easily say that had EA BW etc. done the things they said they do originally so on, and so forth, that the same forum credibility you're referring to would be in tact. You really can't point fingers at one without pointing fingers at the other. And to ignore the obvious simply because you are more annoyed currently, (and I stress CURRENTLY} with one aspect over the others does not change this. And before You go saying something about me and 10 bucks. It's only 10 bucks I will more than live, and no my issue is not with 10 bucks, as it does not matter to me. However annoying it is, The outcry about it holds some validity and that alone is what makes all this dumb in the first place. It's not the money it's the intent behind it. It is also very clear that folks complaining want to be here, yet simply don't like being ripped off. You know.. . Loyal customers.. Loyalty etc.

Furthermore, I doubt you are oblivious to this knowledge as a whole.

Durasturan's Avatar


Durasturan
12.30.2012 , 11:55 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
All that this thread deserves because that's all it is attacking with.
Even if your concerns were sound and valid, that all this thread is can be summed up as one massive logical fallacy or rather a string of fallacies with no real meat behind them, then it should be easy to pick apart using actual logic wouldn't it?

See, if all the concerns about Makeb are truly unfounded, if they are unreasonable, if they are illogical, then logic would pick them apart in a way no one can argue against. So why don't you go ahead and try using that?

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
12.30.2012 , 11:57 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Durasturan View Post
I'm glad you took the time to read the thread, or even just the post just above yours before commenting...

As you can see, there are quite a few people who DO NOT share your point of view. Of course this game has its die hards and if BW said give me $100 tomorrow or we delete your toons, they would comply. But this game also now has a huge f2p community, lets call these people your healers and your tanks. And without this infusion of people who do not think this game is worth paying for, our servers go back to pre ftp levels of suck.

Keep that in mind.
I subscribe and my healer and tank toons would find two more DPS in no time. Besides, I'm betting that a lot of the f2p players are DPS, and not tank or heals.

I'm also betting that there will not be anywhere near the mass exodus over this that everyone threatens. Too many people will choose to pay the $10 (or $20 without pre-order) rather than stop playing, or they will "continue to play without the xpac" for a bit, until they bite the bullet and buy it.

Durasturan's Avatar


Durasturan
12.30.2012 , 12:06 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I subscribe and my healer and tank toons would find two more DPS in no time. Besides, I'm betting that a lot of the f2p players are DPS, and not tank or heals.

I'm also betting that there will not be anywhere near the mass exodus over this that everyone threatens. Too many people will choose to pay the $10 (or $20 without pre-order) rather than stop playing, or they will "continue to play without the xpac" for a bit, until they bite the bullet and buy it.
Well, since historically the playerbase has done nothing but grow and subs are massively higher than the 2M we started with and 1.2 was such a resounding success that we avoided having to go free to play and enough of those free players and subscribers are making use of the CM that Makeb was given as a free content patch as initially promised we have nothing to worry about...

You see I've been here since Beta, and I remember everyone screaming about all the bugs and how people would quit over them because they were game breaking. How you couldn't even do the OPs because of game breaking bugs and no spawns and boss resets and zoning problems and targeting problems and aggro problems

And there were the Defenders TM saying don't worry, so what if the Raiders leave, they're only a small part of the game and they'll fix the game soon and the Raiders will come back and when the game was reviewed as a WoW clone but BROKEN and people left in droves....

And then the Ilum Fiasco hit and every one said "it's not so bad, I mean you're only insta killed in a laggy environment and locked out of your toon until the horde of players on the other side decide to log off because the spawn point is exposed and bugs prevent you from leaving the area

And there were the Defenders TM saying don't worry, they'll fix Ilum soon and we'll have the superawesome OPVP world they promised us but people left in droves...

And I remember when 1.2 was supposed to start the ranked season and they were talking about ladders and arenas and Ranked Teams and tournaments and superawesome rewards and then four hours before launch Ranked was pulled from 1.2 and pushed back into an unspecified date and then months later was finally "added" but without an official start to the season in sight and no real mechanics aside from what was already added

And the Defenders TM were there saying "who cares about PVPers? This is a story MMO, let the PVPers leave." And they left in droves.

And after one year we have about 1/4th the number of subscribers that we had at launch. 75% of people have left this game over broken promises and broken patches, so when I hear someone say "it's not that big a deal, I doubt too many people leave over it."

I'm forced to remember all the people that have already left the game and why we have to accept changes to a game we pay for that makes it less appealing at all.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
12.30.2012 , 12:11 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Durasturan View Post
That's not a valid analogy, your parts don't quite match up. For this theory to work you would have A. had to buy the computer from the repair shop in the first place. B. Have an ongoing account or service agreement (subscription package) C. Have the store honor part of the agreement but not the entire portion and D. Have a valid rationale for why arguing from the specific to the general is logically sound in this particular case as a generalized syllogism.

Here's the valid form you are looking for:

If I bought a computer from a company and they said they would service it for any hard drive or power supply problems and then when I took it in to have my hard drive and power supply fixed they said "sorry the PCU costs extra now."

What a concerned consumer would do is:
a. No longer buy computers from that retailer.
b. Since they will still service the PCU, take the PCU.

How, in this case, would forcing them to service the PCU as they agreed to force me to stop complaining about the parts of the agreement that they did not live up to?
Try to justify it however you wish. What it boils down to is this. You wish to continue to use a service or service provider, but complain about the service or prices, If you choose to continue to use that service or provider, then, IMO, you forfeit your right to complain. At the very least, you end up looking like a whining child. If you really feel so strongly about the lack of service or prices, then take your business elsewhere.

No one is forced to pay for this expansion. Before the cries of "We have to pay for it or we can't play it" start, you are not forced to play to the new level cap, or even to play the game at all. If you CHOOSE to play the game to the new level cap, then yes you have to pay for the xpac, but you are CHOOSING to play to the new level cap.

Durasturan's Avatar


Durasturan
12.30.2012 , 12:16 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Try to justify it however you wish. What it boils down to is this. You wish to continue to use a service or service provider, but complain about the service or prices, If you choose to continue to use that service or provider, then, IMO, you forfeit your right to complain. At the very least, you end up looking like a whining child. If you really feel so strongly about the lack of service or prices, then take your business elsewhere.

No one is forced to pay for this expansion. Before the cries of "We have to pay for it or we can't play it" start, you are not forced to play to the new level cap, or even to play the game at all. If you CHOOSE to play the game to the new level cap, then yes you have to pay for the xpac, but you are CHOOSING to play to the new level cap.
The main problem with your argument is that the main way a consumer supports a product or service is through money. You can continue to post criticisms and use their product without paying them ANY MONEY WHAT SO EVER. I'm not entirely sure what your argument is supposed to mean and when taken to the general it becomes down right nonsensical honestly.

"You don't like some politicians well then you should never vote!"
"You don't like your grade there fore you should never show up to class!"

Just because you dislike some aspect of some product or service that you pay for, you don't automatically lose your right to voice a concern about it. How criticism can be misconstrued as hatred is beyond me. I'm guessing it makes sense to a generation that was never scolded as children though or had their hand slapped away from a hot stove top.

Pirana's Avatar


Pirana
12.30.2012 , 12:26 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by WNxAbaddon View Post
So the question for fans is, Do you trust EA enough to give them your $10 and do you think its fair that we cant use cartel coins to get the Expo ?
I trust no one outside of immediate family and friends. I will not give money to anyone until I know what I'm receiving. Anyone willing to pre-order the expansion, that's completely on them. I'll wait it out, just as I did with the Collectors Edition, which to me wasn't worth it. Either way, it's ten dollars, a drop in the bucket for most.

Regarding the Cartel option, again, it's ten dollars, buy it or don't.

Lastly, this is a free to play game, which is code for pay to play. Micro-transactions is what it's all about.
The Journey Is Often Greater Than The Destination - Pirana

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
12.30.2012 , 12:31 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Durasturan View Post
Well, since historically the playerbase has done nothing but grow and subs are massively higher than the 2M we started with and 1.2 was such a resounding success that we avoided having to go free to play and enough of those free players and subscribers are making use of the CM that Makeb was given as a free content patch as initially promised we have nothing to worry about...

You see I've been here since Beta, and I remember everyone screaming about all the bugs and how people would quit over them because they were game breaking. How you couldn't even do the OPs because of game breaking bugs and no spawns and boss resets and zoning problems and targeting problems and aggro problems

And there were the Defenders TM saying don't worry, so what if the Raiders leave, they're only a small part of the game and they'll fix the game soon and the Raiders will come back and when the game was reviewed as a WoW clone but BROKEN and people left in droves....

And then the Ilum Fiasco hit and every one said "it's not so bad, I mean you're only insta killed in a laggy environment and locked out of your toon until the horde of players on the other side decide to log off because the spawn point is exposed and bugs prevent you from leaving the area

And there were the Defenders TM saying don't worry, they'll fix Ilum soon and we'll have the superawesome OPVP world they promised us but people left in droves...

And I remember when 1.2 was supposed to start the ranked season and they were talking about ladders and arenas and Ranked Teams and tournaments and superawesome rewards and then four hours before launch Ranked was pulled from 1.2 and pushed back into an unspecified date and then months later was finally "added" but without an official start to the season in sight and no real mechanics aside from what was already added

And the Defenders TM were there saying "who cares about PVPers? This is a story MMO, let the PVPers leave." And they left in droves.

And after one year we have about 1/4th the number of subscribers that we had at launch. 75% of people have left this game over broken promises and broken patches, so when I hear someone say "it's not that big a deal, I doubt too many people leave over it."

I'm forced to remember all the people that have already left the game and why we have to accept changes to a game we pay for that makes it less appealing at all.
I've been here since beta also, and I know that there have been a lot of players who left. That I will not argue. My bet is that a lot of the people who still play, or come here complaining on the forums, will not actually leave the game, or even cancel their subs, due to the restrictions that even preferred status has. If people are really upset and want to make the bigwigs at EA/BW listen, then they should speak with their wallets and not just unsub, but actually not even play at all. I doubt that most of the complainers will do either.

We'll just have to wait and see which of us is correct.