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Add more threat to guardians!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Add more threat to guardians!

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
01.03.2013 , 08:26 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by SleepyJoeFriday View Post
Perhaps the cookie cutter guardian tank build isn't all it's made out to be.

Using taunts straight off is not a good way to go. I tend to only use taunts once in a fight to grab attention and then follow that up with damage dealt. If the group is spread apart then I refrain from leading off with sabre throw as it is useful to grab aggro later. I also try and herd opponents together so that I can use the multiple target kick ability.

I've diverted from the standard skill set to include a full boost to my strength and a couple of other skills from the damage trees.

I suspect that you may not need to go full tank in order to work well, but I appreciate that it does rely more on equipment (armour class, defence adjustments, shield and absorb).

I don't claim to be an expert as I'm only at level 42 so far, but I have noticed that whenever I taunt an opponent to a high damage dps I need to follow that up with actual damage if I'm to pull agro onto me.

Another point is if possible I never run without a Might stim, but then having Biochem crew skill helps there. don't forget that as well as boosting damage it also boosts accuracy and health.
In endgame operations unless fully geared (and even then it'd be unorthodox) you'd never use a might stim, fortitude stim with hp and defense rating boost would be the way to go, and also accuracy for late game tanking has very small benefit in contrast to the additional mitigation you could have taken. The ideal mitigation numbers are unreachable for those who stack accuracy.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
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SleepyJoeFriday's Avatar


SleepyJoeFriday
01.04.2013 , 09:03 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
In endgame operations unless fully geared (and even then it'd be unorthodox) you'd never use a might stim, fortitude stim with hp and defense rating boost would be the way to go, and also accuracy for late game tanking has very small benefit in contrast to the additional mitigation you could have taken. The ideal mitigation numbers are unreachable for those who stack accuracy.
That may well be the case for endgame, as yet I've only got a Gunslinger and a sage healer through to the end, so I'll have to wait and see.

I'm not intentionally stacking accuracy, or strength - all my armour mods are endurance or defense biased. I still reckon that you need to follow up any taunt with damage in order to help hold agro. That means being able to hit your opponent and doing enough damage so that with the agro multipliers you have, keeps then imterested in you.

Still there's also the issue that many DPS focus on one target for too long, and that's true of tanks as well. I find with my Gunslinger that I regularly have to use the threat dump ability and switch targets when I draw too much agro. In the end it helps me and the tank as whilst they run to attack my Gunslinger they're not attacking the tank.

Never_Hesitate's Avatar


Never_Hesitate
01.04.2013 , 09:07 AM | #13
Higher the DMG of the tank guardian and the threat will rise with it.
Problem fixxed and tanking stays fun.
But do not just rise the generated threat to 200% or something like this, it would kill the fun in tanking.
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DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
01.07.2013 , 03:35 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Glorthox View Post
So tired of trying to tank mobs on my guardian and the dps easily pulls it from me. I'm in the right form, I have all the right abilities to tank, but yet there isn't very many that generate large amounts of threat. All the taunts have such an unusually long cooldown. And it is because of this, I have seen more and more groups looking for trooper and assassin tanks instead of guardians. When it comes to single target I don't have a problem, but when it is more than one, I tend to struggle...
First, make sure you are in Soresu form. This ups your Threat by 100%. Helps a lot.

Place your guard on the Trooper or Sentinel DPS as they will almost certainly pull threat if you are not using your rotation properly.

Master Strike, Guardian Strike, Hilt Strike....these all generate large amounts of threat, so I would set them up on your main hotbar together for easy access. In addition, you should have an ability called Guardian Leap, hit your other DPS or Sentinel occassionally with this in order to drop their threat level during fights.

Also, you have a ability called FOCUSED DEFENSE as a Guardian Tank. Remove it immediately from your hotbar and NEVER use it again. That ability reduces your Threat and makes it VERY easy for a DPS to pull aggro. So many Guardians use that cause they think its a defensive ability. It is, but it does more harm than good.

Dont overuse your taunts. Your Taunt ability is for single targets only. To force a group to attack you need to switch to your AOE taunt, which lasts for 12 seconds, plenty of time to use Guardian Slash and other abilities to hold aggro. Also, target the strongest NPC. The weaker ones can be downed fast by a AOE attack from a DPS, so keep your aggro on the biggest guy in the mob.
Jedi do not fight for Peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading, as slogans always are. Jedi fight for Civilization, because only Civilization creates Peace. - Jedi Master Mace Windu

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.07.2013 , 04:12 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by DarknessInLight View Post
First, make sure you are in Soresu form. This ups your Threat by 100%. Helps a lot.
Your first piece of advice is to make sure people are in their tank stance? Are you in tech support because that's the tanking equivalent of asking if their computer is on?

Quote:
Master Strike, Guardian Strike, Hilt Strike....these all generate large amounts of threat
Master Strike isn't a high threat ability and it's primary value is in dealing damage without a focus cost. It's no better at generating threat than any other ability you've got. Also, the primary value of Hilt Strike and Master Strike to a Guardian tank is that they are free: if you're using them hard and early before you've had a chance to actually run out of Focus, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Quote:
To force a group to attack you need to switch to your AOE taunt, which lasts for 12 seconds
The AoE taunt only lasts 6 seconds, just like the ST taunt.
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DracJedi's Avatar


DracJedi
01.08.2013 , 12:26 PM | #16
Being a guardian tank, you need to control the field of battle by using all of your resourses. First, have your party members use their long stuns to reduce the number of mobs you have to agro. Then use your two hard stuns (hilt strike and staisis) to control two other mobs. Then hit the two or three gold or silver mobs to gain agro on them. You can use your force push situationally to buy some time on a non boss mob. Use your sweep if it is appropriate and doesn't break the cc's. Otherwise you can now use your aoe taunt to hold agro a little longer.

You don't need told agro on all of the mobs forever, just long enough for the dps (which has to go from weak mobs to strong mobs) to kill their mobs, which shouldn't be too long if they know what they are doing. Like others have said, don't use you aoe taunt until you have damaged each mob. Otherwise the agro generated wont last past the 6 secs and the healer will pick up some strays.

Focus defense can be used situationally in long boss fights as an added defensive cool down (use it with endure which will add some effectiveness). But you have to use a taunt right afterwards or you will lose threat quickly bc FD has a threat drop.

If you are losing agro on mobs after doing the above, it means your dps is attacking in the wrong order or not killing fast enough. DPS should never be starting on the strongest mob. They should kill weak to strong and by the time they get to the strong, you should have such a threat lead that they can't catch up. If they start on strong, tell them to stop or they have to eat that mob on their own.

For one boss mobs, tell the dps to give you a few seconds to work through a rotation and then attack. If you have a better geared dps, put gaurd on them. Save your taunts for if you lose agro or if the boss has a threat drop mechanic.

Let me know if you have any questions. If you do the above, you shouldn't have too much trouble holding agro except where there is a huge gear disparity with the dps. Guardians have to do more "work" to gain and hold agro over the other two, but they hold agro just fine if you work it right.

old_benn's Avatar


old_benn
01.08.2013 , 05:07 PM | #17
The previous poster is spot on: DPS should be burning the weaker enemies. You should only have to worry about tanking the elites in the group. There usually aren't more than 4 of them. Use your AOE taunt, and attack each of them 2 or 3 times. That should be sufficient to stop them from attacking the healer. Then focus on one of them. At that point, the DPS should be done burning the weaks, and can join in on the elite you've been pounding on.

Admittedly, my experience is with Heroics and hard mode FPs. I don't do operations, so that experience might be different.

Also, I play a hybrid Guardian. I forget the exact breakdown, but I only have around 17 points in the Defense tree. The rest are in Vigilance. That helps raise my own DPS, thereby generating greater threat. I don't have problems maintaining aggro. Yes, DPS occasionally pull a mob off of me, but it's rare enough that my single-enemy Taunt is always ready, so I just use that and the problem is solved.
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LarryRow's Avatar


LarryRow
01.09.2013 , 04:00 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Master Strike isn't a high threat ability and it's primary value is in dealing damage without a focus cost. It's no better at generating threat than any other ability you've got. Also, the primary value of Hilt Strike and Master Strike to a Guardian tank is that they are free: if you're using them hard and early before you've had a chance to actually run out of Focus, you're doing yourself a disservice.
Master Strike does decent damage and has a mid-range cooldown. I use it early in my opening rotation so its second use is available sooner.

Also it doesn't matter focus-wise if you use it when you are empty or half-full. The only time you wouldn't want to use it is if you have a full bar, and taking a hit will waste focus generation.
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DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
01.18.2013 , 10:04 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Your first piece of advice is to make sure people are in their tank stance? Are you in tech support because that's the tanking equivalent of asking if their computer is on?
You won't believe how many tanks are not in the proper stance. Most of the time it's the simplest thing causing the biggest problem.

Quote:
Master Strike isn't a high threat ability and it's primary value is in dealing damage without a focus cost. It's no better at generating threat than any other ability you've got. Also, the primary value of Hilt Strike and Master Strike to a Guardian tank is that they are free: if you're using them hard and early before you've had a chance to actually run out of Focus, you're doing yourself a disservice.
I stand corrected.
Jedi do not fight for Peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading, as slogans always are. Jedi fight for Civilization, because only Civilization creates Peace. - Jedi Master Mace Windu

SleepyKing's Avatar


SleepyKing
01.22.2013 , 04:07 AM | #20
I agree with the OP - the design of the guardian tank is woeful, and it really needs work to make it a more viable tank. Let's list the problems:

* no ranged AoE opener to draw initial threat. Instead you have to hope that the enemies are bunched up enough when you leap in and hit your sweep.
* your one >10m ranged ability, saber throw, has a relatively long cool down and a minimum range. So you can't target switch to draw threat from all around like a vanguard can. You can mix it up a bit with blade storm, I guess, and hope your focus levels are good enough.
* no pull. How many times have you had to trot over to the guy attacking your healer or dps to try and get aggro from them?
* the most important threat generating ability, guardian slash, is at it's most effective typically 5 GCDs into the fight (saber throw->force leap->sweep->sundering strike->guardian slash). By the time you hit it for the first time, aggro is all over the place and enemies are scattering to chase after other players. It makes catching them in the small AoE very hard. The weird cone shape of the AoE just makes it a lottery, too. It really just needs to be a simple radius, like force sweep.
* the other threat generator, hilt strike, is useless against most champion mobs and bosses, since most are immune to stuns. But you still hit it anyway, even though it does pathetic damage, because what else are you going to do?
EDIT: * and another annoyance - the focus building mechanism requires that you be hit a lot to build energy. If you lose threat, it can spiral, since it can be hard to build focus up again to pull threat back - better hope Combat Focus is on cool down. If you're in an op as the off-tank, you'll also often have focus issues.

Like Kitru said, I think they need to buff the crap out of guardian slash. Make it a full 360 hit (like force sweep), and maybe reduce the cooldown - it's not like it hits so hard that it needs to be on a 15s cooldown for balance reasons. Also increase guardian tank dps, which is the worst of any class in the game.

As it stands, yes, you can get by by spamming the crap out of your taunts, asking people to give you time to build aggro and hoping that the rest of the group does their job (killing the peripheral shooters first and hitting their threat dumps when they rip it from you), but it's not exactly fun. And in pugs, you can't always rely on everybody else doing their job.