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End Game Crafting Changes for RotHC

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
End Game Crafting Changes for RotHC

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
12.27.2012 , 10:13 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
I agree with this. As each successive tier of gear was released, the gear on these vendors should have progressively improved (and not just updated relics, but all the armoring, barrels, hilts and other items). I also think they should have phased out Tionese commendations as part of the daily / weekly HM missions and progressed the commendations earned there as well.

If they had done so, and if crafters had been able to craft and sell progressively better gear as well, they would never have had to just hand out free gear to 50s as there would be lots of crafted and vendor stuff available at various quality levels / price points.

If you want to help end-game crafting, you should phase out those vendors, not boost them. Every hilt, barrel, amoring,etc bought to one of those vendors is one less piece bought to a crafter. I don't think that helps crafting.

Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post

Either they remove it entirely or they let us send anything bound to alts. Right now no hilts can be sent nor can any relics, implants or ear pieces. Not to mention only people who participated in the Rakghoul event can send barrels and crystals. This isn't balanced.
Just a correction. The Legacy weapons weren't introduced in tthe Rakhoul event. It was in the sencond one, it was the Grand Acquisitions Race event

Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
Maybe they add a new credit sink / legacy unlock which grants the ability to send bound items within a legacy. Maybe it becomes a separate credit sink like removing mods, such as X credits to change the bind from character to legacy.
That could work. Or maybe charging a fee everytime you mail them to one of your other characters.

Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
Oh and for the alt-o-holics (of which I am one), I'd gladly give up the sending bound mods in legacy gear if I could get true legacy leveling gear that was decent looking, stat specific (not class specific), and auto leveled with my characters.
So one piece of gear for the entire campaing ? How does that help crafting (end-game or low-mid level) ?
Less gear needed, less need for crafters. And crafters dont make Legacy gear to begin with.

There already are crystals that aren't provided by crafters that last the entire campaing. And those are bad imo. Extending this would be terrible

Kaskali's Avatar


Kaskali
12.28.2012 , 12:23 AM | #22
I agree with some of these ideas, like rebalancing mission skills and crafting skills, but I think you have the problem backward.

The real problem with SW:TOR crafting is that it has been reduced to an auxiliary reward system for raiding.

A good crafting system rewards players for spending time and effort mastering tradeskills. Luck may play some role in this, but the overall rewards for crafting should be roughly proportional to a player's investment in crafting. The crafting system in SW:TOR is broken because it rewards players for raiding, with no relationship whatsoever to the time or effort they have invested developing their tradeskills. The players selling the best hilts on the GTN should be the ones who invested the most time and effort honing their craft and acquiring materials, not someone who powerleveled artifice a couple days ago because no one else in the operations group could RE hilts.

The fact that the riffraff can forgo gear upgrades to buy stim schematics with their hard-earned Black Hole Commendations or gamble several thousand Fleet Commendations to get the Molecular Stabilizers to pay a raider to push a button and craft them new barrels is not a problem; it is one of the only redeeming features of the current system.

Contra the OP, the best thing BioWare could do to improve the crafting system is to completely separate crafting from raiding and raid rewards.

Whatever its problems, the crafting system at launch provided a meaningful independent path to gear progression with significant depth and time/resource gating. A player who invested enough time and credits to learn tier two recipes and craft augmented versions of these could produce something that was roughly comparable to Tionese gear. Select BoP pieces were best-in-slot when augmented. The players selling the best earpieces of the GTN were the cybertechnicians who invested the most time and Mandalorian Iron crafting and reverse engineering items to produce augmented versions of earpieces with the most highly sought-after tier two affixes. They had no artificial advantage over other cybertechnicians.

The introduction of augment kits, the ability to remove mods from endgame gear, free Tionese gear for all level fifty players, and the paucity of new trainer- or schematic-taught recipes to keep up with new raid gear have all conspired to render SW:TOR crafting a reward system for the handful of players who, ironically, don't actually need any of the gear they learn to craft by reverse engineering operation drops (else they would use it instead of reverse engineering it).

Do not get me wrong: I fully support each of these developments (except for the part about the lack of new schematics), and I doubt BioWare fully foresaw what they would do to the crafting system. Nevertheless, the current system rewards raiding rather than crafting and it gives those who already have the largest advantages the ability to monopolize realm economies at the expense of everyone else. If you think raiders are not rewarded enough for what they do, tweak operations drops. Do not continue to make endgame crafting contingent on reverse engineering operations gear (or prohibitively expensive crafted gear that someone else learned to make by reverse engineering operations gear).

If BioWare wants to develop a functional, compelling crafting system and foster healthy realm economies what they need to do is separate crafting from raiding altogether, not further marginalize and exclude those of us who do not raid by making every aspect of end game crafting the exclusive province of raiders.

uniz's Avatar


uniz
12.28.2012 , 10:10 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
IMO, current end-game crafting is an imbalanced joke and significant changes should be made to balance crafting as part of RotHC.

Changes I'd like to see include (in no particular order):

1 - Bound means bound, no ripping and sending bound mods to alts using legacy gear.

sounds great until you get that third 50 and need to go through all of the end game content again. a vast majority of us have LOTS of 50s. the game promotes this.

2 - Highest tier PVE items require mats that only come from highest tier PVE content (not space, not comms, not PVP, not CM).

i can agree with this. pvp needs to get thier mats the same means as pve. if one can use coms then either both or neither should. same with quest rewards and drops.

3 - Mid tier items require mats that can be obtained from alternative sources.

what is "mid tier items". mats should be gained from content that drops the gear. make the gear re the mats if "mid tier" is what i think you are talking about.

4 - Schematics for highest tier items only obtainable from direct RE or drop of highest content (very low chance).

make the schematics boe and see the prices soar or if done your way a select few guilds will have a monopoly on certain crafted items. competition is a good thing like it is now. re chance is fine now since it has been increased from what it was some time ago. reing something over 100 times for a schematic isn't enjoyable so it was changed. none of us wants to ever go back to this.

5 - Schematics for mid tier items can be obtained from alternative sources.

again mid tier. sources should be the same content being done which drops the item. coms from that content would be fine.

6 - No schematics can be learned by RE'ing a crafted item.

kinda agree with this.

7 - Crew skills rebalanced such that each skill contributes equally to gearing (cybertech too powerful while synth / armor irrelevant).

synth and armor make augments and kits. they are the best material efficient crew skills to make kits. armstech i can understand

8 - Mission skills rebalanced such that material supply is aligned with material demand (UWT metals too important while UWT cloth irrelevant).

cloth is only used for light armor by synthweavers. changing this to medium and heavy for synthweavers would suffice. i really never had a problem with this either but that doesnt mean others dont.

9 - As new content is released, schematics and materials for the previous highest tier items become more readily available, with the newest tier items taking their place as rare and difficult to obtain.

disagree with content or perhaps level is what you meant here. so i can support obsolete levels when a level increase is made. like any mods below the new level. no need to make level 61/63 a lot easier when max level is 55 for example. a little easier i can agree with.

I'm sure many others have lots of ideas that are much more detailed and specific on ways to improve crafting while improving the integrity of end game such that players are encouraged and rewarded for participating in end game content, not buying end game gear off the GTN.

Please share yours (though yes, the jaded part of me feels it won't matter as the devs will do whatever they feel like doing and even with the best of intentions, will screw it up somehow anyway).
shared some of my thoughts under each of your points.

i do have other ideas but people have already hit upon some of them and i am pressed for time.

nice post.

asbalana's Avatar


asbalana
12.28.2012 , 11:01 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaskali View Post
I agree with some of these ideas, like rebalancing mission skills and crafting skills, but I think you have the problem backward.

The real problem with SW:TOR crafting is that it has been reduced to an auxiliary reward system for raiding.

A good crafting system rewards players for spending time and effort mastering tradeskills. Luck may play some role in this, but the overall rewards for crafting should be roughly proportional to a player's investment in crafting. The crafting system in SW:TOR is broken because it rewards players for raiding, with no relationship whatsoever to the time or effort they have invested developing their tradeskills. The players selling the best hilts on the GTN should be the ones who invested the most time and effort honing their craft and acquiring materials, not someone who powerleveled artifice a couple days ago because no one else in the operations group could RE hilts.

The fact that the riffraff can forgo gear upgrades to buy stim schematics with their hard-earned Black Hole Commendations or gamble several thousand Fleet Commendations to get the Molecular Stabilizers to pay a raider to push a button and craft them new barrels is not a problem; it is one of the only redeeming features of the current system.

Contra the OP, the best thing BioWare could do to improve the crafting system is to completely separate crafting from raiding and raid rewards.

Whatever its problems, the crafting system at launch provided a meaningful independent path to gear progression with significant depth and time/resource gating. A player who invested enough time and credits to learn tier two recipes and craft augmented versions of these could produce something that was roughly comparable to Tionese gear. Select BoP pieces were best-in-slot when augmented. The players selling the best earpieces of the GTN were the cybertechnicians who invested the most time and Mandalorian Iron crafting and reverse engineering items to produce augmented versions of earpieces with the most highly sought-after tier two affixes. They had no artificial advantage over other cybertechnicians.

The introduction of augment kits, the ability to remove mods from endgame gear, free Tionese gear for all level fifty players, and the paucity of new trainer- or schematic-taught recipes to keep up with new raid gear have all conspired to render SW:TOR crafting a reward system for the handful of players who, ironically, don't actually need any of the gear they learn to craft by reverse engineering operation drops (else they would use it instead of reverse engineering it).

Do not get me wrong: I fully support each of these developments (except for the part about the lack of new schematics), and I doubt BioWare fully foresaw what they would do to the crafting system. Nevertheless, the current system rewards raiding rather than crafting and it gives those who already have the largest advantages the ability to monopolize realm economies at the expense of everyone else. If you think raiders are not rewarded enough for what they do, tweak operations drops. Do not continue to make endgame crafting contingent on reverse engineering operations gear (or prohibitively expensive crafted gear that someone else learned to make by reverse engineering operations gear).

If BioWare wants to develop a functional, compelling crafting system and foster healthy realm economies what they need to do is separate crafting from raiding altogether, not further marginalize and exclude those of us who do not raid by making every aspect of end game crafting the exclusive province of raiders.
Totally, completely, and absolutely agree.

Crafting is at the highest levels a raiding reward and little else. If the intent is to get people to raid, it has missed the mark in that it more likely motivates them to give up on crafting or unsub in frustration,

mothear's Avatar


mothear
12.28.2012 , 06:52 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by asbalana View Post
Totally, completely, and absolutely agree.

Crafting is at the highest levels a raiding reward and little else. If the intent is to get people to raid, it has missed the mark in that it more likely motivates them to give up on crafting or unsub in frustration,
I also approve Kaskali's message.

SithVeritas's Avatar


SithVeritas
12.30.2012 , 06:55 AM | #26
BioWare prioritizes Cartel Market stuff.
Crafting is a joke now, especially Synthweaving/Armormech.

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
12.30.2012 , 07:05 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by asbalana View Post
No soloist or pvper can craft at the highes level. That does nor make sense, never has, and never will and is a good way of forcing people to eventually unsub.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaskali View Post
Nevertheless, the current system rewards raiding rather than crafting and it gives those who already have the largest advantages the ability to monopolize realm economies at the expense of everyone else. If you think raiders are not rewarded enough for what they do, tweak operations drops. Do not continue to make endgame crafting contingent on reverse engineering operations gear (or prohibitively expensive crafted gear that someone else learned to make by reverse engineering operations gear).

If BioWare wants to develop a functional, compelling crafting system and foster healthy realm economies what they need to do is separate crafting from raiding altogether, not further marginalize and exclude those of us who do not raid by making every aspect of end game crafting the exclusive province of raiders.
QFT!

If anything there needs to be multiple paths to learning those end-game schematics. But better still to just make different rewards for crafting than raiding.
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Pernicia's Avatar


Pernicia
12.31.2012 , 03:27 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
IMO, current end-game crafting is an imbalanced joke and significant changes should be made to balance crafting as part of RotHC.

Changes I'd like to see include (in no particular order):

1 - Bound means bound, no ripping and sending bound mods to alts using legacy gear.
2 - Highest tier PVE items require mats that only come from highest tier PVE content (not space, not comms, not PVP, not CM).
3 - Mid tier items require mats that can be obtained from alternative sources.
4 - Schematics for highest tier items only obtainable from direct RE or drop of highest content (very low chance).
5 - Schematics for mid tier items can be obtained from alternative sources.
6 - No schematics can be learned by RE'ing a crafted item.
7 - Crew skills rebalanced such that each skill contributes equally to gearing (cybertech too powerful while synth / armor irrelevant).
8 - Mission skills rebalanced such that material supply is aligned with material demand (UWT metals too important while UWT cloth irrelevant).
9 - As new content is released, schematics and materials for the previous highest tier items become more readily available, with the newest tier items taking their place as rare and difficult to obtain.

I'm sure many others have lots of ideas that are much more detailed and specific on ways to improve crafting while improving the integrity of end game such that players are encouraged and rewarded for participating in end game content, not buying end game gear off the GTN.

Please share yours (though yes, the jaded part of me feels it won't matter as the devs will do whatever they feel like doing and even with the best of intentions, will screw it up somehow anyway).
I agree with most of this, excluding the thing about legacy gear. My ideal crafting system, however, would be more of a complete overhaul from what we currently have. First and foremost, get rid of crafting the highest tier armorings, mods, enhancements, hilts and barrels. It makes min/max gearing way too fast, too dependent on money, and marginalizes everything except the professions that make them. It also leads to an economy where the ones lucky enough to get patterns the first week are able to price gouge and make obscene amounts of money.

In place of the current mod crafting, Synthweavers and Armormechs get a chest and a belt pattern. They are fully moddable and min/maxed (i.e. Might armoring, Deft mod, Adept enhancement), however, everything in it is bound to slot like armorings are now. Artificers and Armstechs get offhands. They are moddable, min/maxed, and with the exception of color crystals, fully slot-restricted. Cybertechs and Biochems keep Ears and Implants respectively. Relics, MHs, and all other armor slots become drop/com only. All end-game patterns are only obtainable from a vendor for special crafting tokens dropped from top tier ops. The mats are also only obtainable from top tier ops or REing top tier gear.

After a new tier is introduced, then and only then is crafting unbound armorings, mods, enhancements, hilts, and barrels opened up for the old tier. These patterns and mats along with the old top tier craftables and mats are also obtainable from a vendor for different crafting tokens which are earned from completing heroic dailies, HM FPs, and old Ops.
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FAAmecanic's Avatar


FAAmecanic
01.02.2013 , 10:57 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by chapiteaux View Post
.Why should i waste another couple of month for gearing up my new character if i want to change faction or simply switch to other game role?
^^THIS^^

I have done the Daily/Black Hole/ OPS grind on two lvl 50 toons...I have 7 other toons leveling now (only because I like to play a variety of roles and fill in when my guild needs a specific class). Why should I have to grind for all 7 when I can and should be able to pass on those High level mods/armor/enhancements from one legacy toon to another.

psandak's Avatar


psandak
01.02.2013 , 12:13 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
It seems silly that right now I have low level cybertech and artifice alts who can craft current BIS items (63) and sell them on the GTN, while my 50 synthweaver and armormech characters cannot even sell the few Rakata (58) or lower items they can craft and for end-game gear are basically irrelevant.
The solution to that problem is to do what Blizzard did in WoW - link crafting skill level to character level; in SWTOR terms a level 10 character could only craft and RE items up to level 19 (approximately crew skill level 100), a level 20 character can only craft and RE up to level 29 (approximately crew skill level 200), etc.

As a matter of fact the WoW change came about because players were creating level 10 characters with the enchanting profession to only disenchant items they did not need. And in order to be "fair" Blizzard put character level limits on crafting too.