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How can anyone take the empire seriously?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
How can anyone take the empire seriously?

Alavastre's Avatar


Alavastre
12.17.2012 , 10:04 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by VegaPhone View Post
Its about the concept of a person having power to control others. Its a realism perspective.

The powerful do as they please and the weak follow. However, its not total anarchy, its more organized and with a goal that becomes mutual. This also ties in with the realism perspective, and how there are no friends but only people with mutual interests.

If you do not accept the force as something that is powerful enough to control others then either the story was not convincing enough to prove that point or you lack the ability to believe in such things. Probably due to browsing the internet too long and reading too many witty atheistic and skeptical comments that they leave a person without imagination or sense of belief to play along with anything.

The republic is more about being responsible with that power. And also how that responsibility borders on certain hypocrisy but because the force is so powerful certain things have to be done to control it and fight the opposing side, the empire as well.
It's not anarchy at all, which means without rulers. The Emperor is the dictator of the Empire. I don't know why you associate anarchy with Emperor and Empire lol.

As for the Empire, it's held together by the Emperor, but yes, it's hard to understand how they will stay together. Though some might argue they gain strength through a Darwin type of natural selection. I find both sides kind of corny in their own ways.
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

Lium's Avatar


Lium
12.17.2012 , 10:24 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Kleryk View Post
What I mean, aside from occasional PC saving some imperial NPCs or doing errands for them, is that most of the quests revolve around one thing - performing face surgery with a glowstick/blaster on everyone who disagrees with the Empire to subdue him while Republic actions are like wrapping a car that falls apart with duct tape so it holds just a bit longer. Rep side Hoth was pathetic, for example.
Right, that's my point. Speaking strictly from a creative standpoint, I find that far more interesting and engaging - playing the side that is barely making it, keeping things together with, as you say, duct tape and a prayer. We're the underdogs.

And apparently, most of humanity agrees with that as well, since that's been the basis of most stories for the last 5000 years or so. It's storytelling 101. The hero or heroes are trying to make it against impossible odds amidst internecine corruption, incredibly fragile support (if you can even call it that) and bickering politicians.

And you also proved my point about the empire. Like I said I'm having fun playing my marauder but all the quests really are kill anyone that defies you. It's not interesting, it's a cartoon. And not even a really good one.

The best portrayal of the Sith, in my opinion, came from KOTOR2. While I don't think the game itself was as good as the first, I gave Obsidian major props for their take on the story. They challenged what it meant to be a Jedi or a Sith and what the Force truly was. And the plot of the game revolved around a former Sith Lord actually trying to destroy it along with BOTH orders.

Compare that to the empire stories we have in SWTOR. It's basically, "BOW DOWN TO ME OR DIE!!! " or some variant of "AND AFTER I GET MY SUPERWEAPON OF AWESOME DESTRUCTION, THE REPUBLIC WILL BE DOOMED! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!"

And I'm sitting there like, "Really?"

Oxades's Avatar


Oxades
12.17.2012 , 11:54 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Lium View Post
Right, that's my point. Speaking strictly from a creative standpoint, I find that far more interesting and engaging - playing the side that is barely making it, keeping things together with, as you say, duct tape and a prayer. We're the underdogs.

And apparently, most of humanity agrees with that as well, since that's been the basis of most stories for the last 5000 years or so. It's storytelling 101. The hero or heroes are trying to make it against impossible odds amidst internecine corruption, incredibly fragile support (if you can even call it that) and bickering politicians.

And you also proved my point about the empire. Like I said I'm having fun playing my marauder but all the quests really are kill anyone that defies you. It's not interesting, it's a cartoon. And not even a really good one.

The best portrayal of the Sith, in my opinion, came from KOTOR2. While I don't think the game itself was as good as the first, I gave Obsidian major props for their take on the story. They challenged what it meant to be a Jedi or a Sith and what the Force truly was. And the plot of the game revolved around a former Sith Lord actually trying to destroy it along with BOTH orders.

Compare that to the empire stories we have in SWTOR. It's basically, "BOW DOWN TO ME OR DIE!!! " or some variant of "AND AFTER I GET MY SUPERWEAPON OF AWESOME DESTRUCTION, THE REPUBLIC WILL BE DOOMED! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!"

And I'm sitting there like, "Really?"
Sort of make you what to scream “COBRAAAA!!!!!”

Kleryk's Avatar


Kleryk
12.17.2012 , 12:07 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Lium View Post
And you also proved my point about the empire. Like I said I'm having fun playing my marauder but all the quests really are kill anyone that defies you. It's not interesting, it's a cartoon. And not even a really good one.
England as colonial empire. 3rd Reich. Soviets. Japan in several eras. Even Roman Empire and Persians. There were examples of ruthless, sometimes even genocidal conquest in our history. You call it cartoon, I call it history. Some country wanted to break out of Soviet Union? Suuuure, have our tanks and rockets. China didn't want to be conquered by Japan? Go ahead, impale yourself on our swords after we pack you into internment camps. Barbarians insisted on passing through roman lands in europe? Fine, but with pilum stuck in your eye and gladius tearing through your wife. Persians? 300 pretty much nails it. England didn't like revolts in their colonies - they were suppressed with bullets and bayonets, brutally. I guess I don't need to remind you of what nazis did to everyone who disagreed.

Empire is just as realistic as the corrupt, rotten and falling apart Republic.
At least I have chicken.

internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.17.2012 , 12:15 PM | #35
How could anyone take the empire seriously?

That is like asking how hiter/stalin/sadam hussian etc got power.

Fear and control.

Here is my point of view:
The republic ideal is perfect in theory.
Coopeation, unity, equil rights, etc etc etc basicly everyone has the same worth.
Sounds perfect right?
While they failed to add in human nature.
Greed, arogant ,pride, lust etc.
In fact the sheer amount of grey jedi(i am looking at you gamers) show how few people accauly are willing to sacrife themself for the greater good(and i dont mean dieing i mean working a **** job every day of the week because nobody else will)

The republic is like a self-substaining cancer.
If it wasnt for the occiasinol good guy saving the day they would already have died many times over.

The empire on the other hand was very compitent.
WIth the key word being was.

The empire is very single minded.
When failure means your death you are more encourge to make it work the first time.
The sith are basicly bullies with to much power you try to keep of your back.
You have to be compleetly inmoral just to survive.
This work well when you are running a small tightly control pupulation.

The main reson the empire is falling apart is the they have spread themself to thin.
Many conquered worlds are eager to rebel, with most of your army in conquered territory your slave's see a chance to free themself.

The emperor is in seclusion planting the seeds for many sith power play's.
Without the emperor the dark councle loses the only thing that binds them(the fear of the emperor)

Infact the entire empire is based on fear, and like many real life nations.
Fear only works to a point.
Once people are no longer afraid they will turn on you.
For example: If you point a gun at somebody who is afraid to die, he will probley do whatever you say.
But if you am your gun at somebody who isnt afraid to die you are suddenly fighting to keep control of your gun(after all you didnt expect them to fight back)

The empire runs like a effecent machine when properly controled.
The problem lies is that without control they fall apart.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

maxetius's Avatar


maxetius
12.17.2012 , 06:39 PM | #36
I am playing Consular now and don't see what's so bad about it... except that Act 1 makes no sense at all dark side.

YeIIow's Avatar


YeIIow
12.18.2012 , 10:58 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by maxetius View Post
I am playing Consular now and don't see what's so bad about it... except that Act 1 makes no sense at all dark side.
thats why u have to "Role-play" ur character, not just farm dark or light points....

OceanwaveII's Avatar


OceanwaveII
12.18.2012 , 10:49 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by YeIIow View Post
thats why u have to "Role-play" ur character, not just farm dark or light points....
No you demand bio ware put actual choice in there narrative and stop being lazy , consular story has to be one of the laziest one-dimensional branching writing I have ever seen . YOU do not force a player down a path then offer moral choices that are suppose have some effect on defining there character . Plenty of fallen dark Jedi in star wars lore hell there one in the imperial agent instead of getting a proper story with branching choices . Get some crap railroaded down one road . One of the reason so many people despise the consular story . (Sith Warrior Honorable warrior looking to redeem the emperor or a malevolent monster , and hell the Imperial agent story the choices damn near alter ever act and the ending , and a far as possible from black and white cartoony dark side/light side choices ? ) Hell there not even a companion on your squad that will vehemently disagree with you , Boring , At least the Jedi Knight has Lord Scourge who provide a completely different point of view ,

Consular ? Oh we are too lazy to write branching story paths with conflict or put any effort into it .lol.. think there a reason that Republic player complain Bio-ware is imperial biased LOL and a lot of people truly hate the consular story .I doubt it will change since the Empire sales better and will most likely get more resources.

. There was definitely more effort put into the Imperial story than the republic ones . Probably because it was more difficult. Most of star wars the Sith tend to be faceless evil caricature with very little realistic depth .To be fair the background jedi are just as one-dimensional , it really only the heroes that had any depth , Luke Obi-wan etc Leia , Her Children etc ) But the Sith in a classic pre-EU interpretation as pure evil is evil can get, going to conflict with a good/bad moral systems bio-ware typical employ, forcing them to philosophically flesh out the Empire story better ,

In-retrospective the Republic story are easier to write . they just had to copy paste ever generic element of star wars. Good guys this , Chant the good guys some more and your done. Not much a writing challenge to be honest . Jedi Knight is word for word a copy of ever plot cliche of the original trilogy while the consular story seem to have zero direction/story flow.. beyond to seem "Good". Writing a Light Side Sith /neutral sith iwas probably more of a challenge , Making the Imperial agent story took far more of a challenge and it shows in the quality and how human the character feels that they've been crapped on by the galaxy.

With the Jedi particular the consular Bio-ware seems like they didn't even care , They made a generic character zero branching narratives and zero depth , zero dramatic tensions , and no fallibility and zero consequences for any of there actions. . People are critical of it because in this day in age people expect more moral ambiguity from there stories , there little tolerance for old school generic Fantasy black/white morality .Also the Game TOR is based on (KOTOR ) was based on exploring the complexity of moral ambiguity and was famous for it . Jedi consular story spits on it really complete trash in comparison to the original kotor , .Hell in kotor 2 the Jedi where incredibly corrupt fearful and bigoted.

OceanwaveII's Avatar


OceanwaveII
12.18.2012 , 11:30 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
How could anyone take the empire seriously?

That is like asking how hiter/stalin/sadam hussian etc got power.

Fear and control.

Here is my point of view:
The republic ideal is perfect in theory.
Coopeation, unity, equil rights, etc etc etc basicly everyone has the same worth.
Sounds perfect right?
While they failed to add in human nature.
Greed, arogant ,pride, lust etc.
In fact the sheer amount of grey jedi(i am looking at you gamers) show how few people accauly are willing to sacrife themself for the greater good(and i dont mean dieing i mean working a **** job every day of the week because nobody else will)

The republic is like a self-substaining cancer.
If it wasnt for the occiasinol good guy saving the day they would already have died many times over.

The empire on the other hand was very compitent.
WIth the key word being was.

The empire is very single minded.
When failure means your death you are more encourge to make it work the first time.
The sith are basicly bullies with to much power you try to keep of your back.
You have to be compleetly inmoral just to survive.
This work well when you are running a small tightly control pupulation.

The main reson the empire is falling apart is the they have spread themself to thin.
Many conquered worlds are eager to rebel, with most of your army in conquered territory your slave's see a chance to free themself.

The emperor is in seclusion planting the seeds for many sith power play's.
Without the emperor the dark councle loses the only thing that binds them(the fear of the emperor)

Infact the entire empire is based on fear, and like many real life nations.
Fear only works to a point.
Once people are no longer afraid they will turn on you.
For example: If you point a gun at somebody who is afraid to die, he will probley do whatever you say.
But if you am your gun at somebody who isnt afraid to die you are suddenly fighting to keep control of your gun(after all you didnt expect them to fight back)

The empire runs like a effecent machine when properly controled.
The problem lies is that without control they fall apart.
Sound about right ,but to be fair if where talking about real empires , The Republic, would mirror the American empire (Ever Empire till-date has said they are morally superior to the savages and then committed genocide and the same crimes of the Empire who where more openly totalitarian or didn't hold themselves in such a high moral spotlight .)They held ideas high ideas of morality while committing all sort of crimes , lol kinda symbolic when Palpatine took over the Republic via a democratic and peaceful debate LOL and turned it into the galactic empire. His argument were from morality and peace to stop the separatist evil once and for all !!!! )

. Which remind me of the Jedi/republic relationship .But think they kiddify the story really or they could of easily explored that . Think in this day an age people are suspect of anything that sound way too noble to be believable , sinc ,since it does not take the flawed nature of human institutions into account and doesn't try to make believable human characters out it . People are more accepting of good people in bad situationist , than absurd moral purity ( I am saying things I really don't believe in ,but It sounds good and because it sounds good it makes me feel morally superior to the inferior people ) . it like the Christian church chanting about ending all sins while killing all the native people and anyone who disagree with there ideas , Reminds me of the Jedi to be honest . Only real difference is they despise anyone who doesn't believe what they believe and can't politically act on there hatred =/ like there deep hatred of the Voss .

Even the more modern star trek films had to re-characterizer the Federation as a flawed believable utopia completely different from Roddenberry perfect Utopia (The New Star Trek Movies /Deep Space 9)

SnoggyMack's Avatar


SnoggyMack
12.19.2012 , 12:58 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Laris_Rai View Post
and the best the Republic could do was keep things together enough that the Empire offered them a crappy peace deal since,
That's not really how it went. The Republic was in the middle of the peace talks at the exact moment Malgus launched his invasion of Coruscant. The peace talks were then resumed once the Empire had the upper hand, and the seat of the Republic was used as a bargaining chip to get worlds like Korriban back in the empire.

A lot of this gets explained in the CE book.
Snoggy Mack
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My quote: "All the other kids with the pumped up Sith, you better run, better run, faster than my blaster"