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[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.04.2012 , 03:30 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by AMKSED View Post
As long as the people they elected weren't complete morons.
yeah, thats the key. there would have to be some kind of vetting process.

player elected reps wouldnt work, as then its just a popularity contest
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

Nightkin's Avatar


Nightkin
12.04.2012 , 03:31 PM | #22
I just dont get why BW refuse to have a dialogue with us directly in regards to pvp. Why dont they make a huge poll concerning each class/spec atleast once per month so people who actively pvp can leave some feedback?

I mean, wich MMO has ever had succesful pvp without actually bother talking to their consumers?

MiaRB's Avatar


MiaRB
12.04.2012 , 03:44 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Nightkin View Post
I just dont get why BW refuse to have a dialogue with us directly in regards to pvp. Why dont they make a huge poll concerning each class/spec atleast once per month so people who actively pvp can leave some feedback?

I mean, wich MMO has ever had succesful pvp without actually bother talking to their consumers?
they did do that. as an example, inf/deception specs got some adjustments partly because they asked for feedback on the class section of the forums.
can't wait for this game to come out!

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.04.2012 , 03:45 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by MiaRB View Post
who decides who these "intelligent" players are? will BW make some type of PVP/game IQ test that we all can take? are you one of these "intelligent" players that BW should listen to? hope not since you dont think math has any role in game balance. turth is, BW reads player feedback and they can see what is nonsense and what isnt. especially when they compare that feedback to objective data from game metrics. so no need to have some select group of "intelligent" players to be the only ones able to give feedback.

devs have made statements about how they all play the game( yes that includes pvp ).
except that 9/10 times game metrics are not representative of what is actually going on.

metrics usually take into account the whole population. which results in comparing samples with different sizes, which you generally shouldnt do.

it also means that the metrics are heavily diluted the greater the population. bioware should be using the top 5% of each class and adjusting sample sizes to make sure all ACs are compared equally.

you cannot objectively compare 5,000 Maras to 500 Mercs, and balancing them game on the performance of bad players is a terrible idea
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

Mancer's Avatar


Mancer
12.04.2012 , 03:48 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Nightkin View Post
I just dont get why BW refuse to have a dialogue with us directly in regards to pvp. Why dont they make a huge poll concerning each class/spec atleast once per month so people who actively pvp can leave some feedback?

I mean, wich MMO has ever had succesful pvp without actually bother talking to their consumers?
It is because BW has no real fix for the chaos they created, also PVP is NOT a priority for them.


Closing in on a year of Ilum being broke. The new warzone has yet to be released how long after the OP was?
I achieved the ultimate level of SWTOR endgame: Forum ranting & trolling!

Chaoskyx's Avatar


Chaoskyx
12.04.2012 , 03:52 PM | #26
HEY GUYS LET'S PRIORITIZE KILL TO DEATH RATIO DATA OVER DPS/HPS/MITIGATION+DPS BECAUSE TAPPING ENEMIES WITH YOUR BASIC ATTACK IS REALLY HARD AND IS A TRUE MEASUREMENT OF A CLASS'S WORTH


I don't even.

MiaRB's Avatar


MiaRB
12.04.2012 , 03:55 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
except that 9/10 times game metrics are not representative of what is actually going on.

metrics usually take into account the whole population. which results in comparing samples with different sizes, which you generally shouldnt do.

it also means that the metrics are heavily diluted the greater the population. bioware should be using the top 5% of each class and adjusting sample sizes to make sure all ACs are compared equally.

you cannot objectively compare 5,000 Maras to 500 Mercs, and balancing them game on the performance of bad players is a terrible idea
great examples of how unreliable player perceptions are and why player feedback has to be measured agaisnt real objective data.

where did you come up with your 9/10 times thing? just made it up because it sounds good? you also are assuming that they only look at broad general data and not specific data like how the top 5% performs. again, you are basing that on what?
can't wait for this game to come out!

UGLYMRJ's Avatar


UGLYMRJ
12.04.2012 , 03:59 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by MiaRB View Post
great examples of how unreliable player perceptions are and why player feedback has to be measured agaisnt real objective data.

where did you come up with your 9/10 times thing? just made it up because it sounds good? you also are assuming that they only look at broad general data and not specific data like how the top 5% performs. again, you are basing that on what?
You keep asking for proof.... well here's the problem with the burden of proof. You have to prove it as well. What proof do you have that metrics ARE an intelligent way to balance a game.

Because I'll tell you what proof I have against that argument of metrics > experience and player feedback.

Answer: Star Wars: The Old Republic.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.04.2012 , 04:02 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by MiaRB View Post
great examples of how unreliable player perceptions are and why player feedback has to be measured agaisnt real objective data.

where did you come up with your 9/10 times thing? just made it up because it sounds good? you also are assuming that they only look at broad general data and not specific data like how the top 5% performs. again, you are basing that on what?
its called critical thinking.

KDR is a terrible metric. the "operatives stunlocking players into un-subbing" metric is terrible. i could go on, but cba.

based on past comments, it is pretty clear that bioware looks at overall population metrics.

and while i would agree that math is a reliable tool for calculating damage output and the like, it is less reliable for calculating what goes on in PvP.

math will predict performance in PvE almost exactly. math in PvP is unreliable because you cannot reliably represent the number one variable in PvP: human ability.

which is why metrics are not the best way to balance actual class performance. looking at average DPS outputs only tell you part of the story in PvP
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

MiaRB's Avatar


MiaRB
12.04.2012 , 04:10 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by UGLYMRJ View Post
You keep asking for proof.... well here's the problem with the burden of proof. You have to prove it as well. What proof do you have that metrics ARE an intelligent way to balance a game.

Because I'll tell you what proof I have against that argument of metrics > experience and player feedback.

Answer: Star Wars: The Old Republic.
should i have to prove the value of scientific method as well? im not asking anyone for "proof" of anything. i am just telling you that player feedback is always subjective and has to be measured against real objective data.

by the way, your personal expreience and perceptions isnt actually "proof". just your opinion. i have my own opinions on game mechanics and on the dif classes as well, but my opinions are not "proof" either. just my own perceptions.

would be foolish for BW or any dev to only look at all those subjective perceptions and not measure them against real objective data.
can't wait for this game to come out!