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Where to upgrade my Jugg from here?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Where to upgrade my Jugg from here?

LadyTributary's Avatar


LadyTributary
12.05.2012 , 01:42 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
Our jugg tanks are at about 27.5k HP with 30/50/50, and IMO even that is a bit high since looking at their gear, I could squeeze out yet another few % damage reduction by dropping an another 2k or so HP.
Just because you can squeeze out another percent or two doesn't mean that you should. If a tank can take two 15k hits without being healed, he's got more survivability than a tank who can only take one. If a tank can take three 10k hits without being healed, he's got more survivability than a tank who can only take two.

The RNG is not always in your favor, and you very well could eat a whole series of hits.

At the top end of the spectrum, the extra health is beneficial, especially if the mitigation numbers are already high (I have nothing good to say for tanks who stack things like accuracy). Yes, you need mitigation, but more health takes stress off of your healers.

Because there are always situations where your snipers are lounging in goo and your marauders are on fire ("Why are the marauders on fire again?") and time-to-kill is the most important metric for a tank. And you maximize time-to-kill by making intelligent choices about mitigation and high endurance. And that means stacking endurance once mitigation has gone asymptotic.

FillionFan's Avatar


FillionFan
12.05.2012 , 02:02 PM | #12
For 16m man ops and above stacking end to 29-30k-ish is the way to go. This is because you take, say 1.5x damage of 8 man but have 2x the heals so being able give healers time to get an extra heal off is more likely to save you than def or shield. Also, the largest hits you take are not dodgeable or shieldable (TFB's scream, Kephess' Mortars, Dreadtooth's Rock Toss).

For 8m you can/should go mitigation or I would argue, compromise between the 2 (most easily by switching to the high end mods and Dread Guard relics).

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.05.2012 , 02:51 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyTributary View Post
Just because you can squeeze out another percent or two doesn't mean that you should. If a tank can take two 15k hits without being healed, he's got more survivability than a tank who can only take one. If a tank can take three 10k hits without being healed, he's got more survivability than a tank who can only take two.
If you're gonna cherry-pick edge-case survivability numbers, at least do it without being so obvious. Neither of the tank stat allotments you mentioned is going to be able to survive 2 20k hits or 3 12k hits in a row, so why don't you completely abandon all mitigation and try for 36k hp? /sarc

TTK isn't an effective metric in TOR because the hits that could actually bury you within a few GCDs don't occur back to back as constant effects. They're either interspersed throughout the fight (such as 1 big hit every 30 seconds or what have you) or they occur during a well known and predictable burst damage phase (wherein you blow a CD and, guess what, you can eat that damage no problem). If you're dying to burst it's not because you needed a better stat distribution: it's because you did something you weren't supposed to and got killed for it, whether that be not standing in bad stuff or not blowing a CD when you were supposed to.

Stacking up to 30k hp isn't going to be useful in a fight unless you actually drop to the 1-3k hp range. Nothing in the game hits hard enough to do that unless you done screwed up, not to mention that building your stats around an arbitrary expectation that a consecutive series of unmitigated hits that deal sufficient damage to kill you within a comparative small margin of error is actually something of a self fulfilling prophecy (by increasing Endurance at the cost of defense and shield, you're increasing the likelihood of said events happening in the first place). By dropping absorb, you're simply expecting your healers to dump more healing into you for the rest of the fight, which also increases the chance of the edge case scenario when you shield a couple hits, but they still end up dealing enough damage to kill you.

The only time a tank should aim for more than 24-25k hp is if they are in a 16m raid, wherein 26-27k is more than enough (you take more damage, but also have more healers so reaction time is more important; you actually don't need more than 2-3k additional hp to provide a large enough reaction time cushion to provide your healers with all they need). Anything beyond that is wasted. If your healers are good enough, anything above 20k is generally redundant as well so you're already devoting nearly 25% of your hp to redundancy in case of an edge case scenario.

Going for more hp than I just recommended is like buying earthquake insurance for a house in Kansas: sure, it's *possible*, but it's so monumentally unlikely that you're ending up costing yourself more than you're getting out of it. First consider that, with 30% defense and 50% shield, you have a 65% chance of mitigating a given attack (.3 + (1-.3) * .5). To get to a 5% edge case (1 in 20% chance of happening; this is, from a scientific standpoint, the weakest acceptable statistically provable likelihood of not being wrong), it would take 7 (6.954, to be entirely accurate) consecutive unmitigated attacks to arrive at said edge case. Next, let's assume that your healer isn't an idiot and is providing at least some modicum of healing, and I'm defining modicum as "way less than you *should* be getting considering the gear levels we're talking about" at 1k hp/sec. To die from the 5% edge case, at 25k hp, with a standard swing rate of 1 attack every 1.5 seconds, you would need to take 5.1k damage from each hit *after damage reduction* (which, as a Guardian, should be roughly 50%, so you're really taking a series of 10.2k damage attacks consecutively). Nothing in game hits that hard on a continual basis *and that's assuming a very likely edge case*.

Stacking hp just doesn't have an appreciable effect on your survivability. It's stacked *purely* as an arbitrary and, comically enough, detractive (since you end up taking more damage and require more healing and make the edge cases you're supposedly building against more likely to occur) bit of e peen. Getting to 30k hp isn't going to make you a hardier tank. It's just going to make you *think* you are while, in reality, doing a worse job than the tank you look down upon who's packing on 24-25k but has *substantially* better mitigation.
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steave's Avatar


steave
12.05.2012 , 04:22 PM | #14
Yeah, agreeing 100% with Kitru. When they actually introduce fights with mechanics that have you take that much damage in such a short time you may have a point, but that just isn't the case atm.

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyTributary View Post
At the top end of the spectrum, the extra health is beneficial, especially if the mitigation numbers are already high (I have nothing good to say for tanks who stack things like accuracy). Yes, you need mitigation, but more health takes stress off of your healers.

Because there are always situations where your snipers are lounging in goo and your marauders are on fire ("Why are the marauders on fire again?") and time-to-kill is the most important metric for a tank. And you maximize time-to-kill by making intelligent choices about mitigation and high endurance. And that means stacking endurance once mitigation has gone asymptotic.
I play a healer as well as a tank, and if we have snipers lounging in goo or marauders in fire I'd much rather have a high mitigation tank so I don't have to spend as much time on healing him, leaving me more time to heal the DPS.
If you're doing 16 man ops, sure, go ahead and get like 27k just to get that extra time for your healers considering the extra damage coming in, but after that it's back to stacking mitigation.

EDIT: One caveat on that: Assassins/shadows can be excused for stacking more endurance since it actually improves their self heal and thus helps their mitigation too. Not really sure how much of it though.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.05.2012 , 05:03 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
EDIT: One caveat on that: Assassins/shadows can be excused for stacking more endurance since it actually improves their self heal and thus helps their mitigation too. Not really sure how much of it though.
If you're in full DG with full mitigation stacked up for you, the hp/sec gained from increasing your hp is roughly equal to the contributions from your mitigation stats, but slightly behind (and this is factoring in the difference in F/T and M/R attacks and damage weighted). Shadow can be excused for stacking hp a bit higher, but not by that much. A Shadow with 30k hp is only a little bit worse off than a Guardian than does so, which means they'd both be better served by upping their mitigation.
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sankalp's Avatar


sankalp
12.05.2012 , 06:27 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
For 16m man ops and above stacking end to 29-30k-ish is the way to go. This is because you take, say 1.5x damage of 8 man but have 2x the heals so being able give healers time to get an extra heal off is more likely to save you than def or shield. Also, the largest hits you take are not dodgeable or shieldable (TFB's scream, Kephess' Mortars, Dreadtooth's Rock Toss).

For 8m you can/should go mitigation or I would argue, compromise between the 2 (most easily by switching to the high end mods and Dread Guard relics).
I strongly disagree.

if you are taking 1.5 times the damage and have 2x heals, you NEED TO STACK MORE MITIGATION.

The extra HP is only useful in avoiding 1shot hits. with 2 heals, you will always have a dedicated healer on you and the best service a tank can do to a healer is to mitigate more damage. The more damage you mitigate, the easier it is for the healer, unless you are getting 2 shot, which is very rare if you are a decent tank. There are no 2 simultanious hit that will eat 25k HP unless you are doing something wrong(scream+ smash from TFB. Breath+empowered slash from NiM EC etc)

sankalp's Avatar


sankalp
12.05.2012 , 06:32 PM | #17
Also,

If you sniper is sitting in goo and mara is on fire, then THEY need to change the tactics. Asking a Tank to stack end because your mara cannot get out of red circles in toth and zorn is /facepalm

RLWalker's Avatar


RLWalker
12.05.2012 , 08:29 PM | #18
I wouldn't say that mitigation is always better than endurance or vice versa. The only general advice I can give is that you should gear to your level of progression. Analyze the specific fight your guild is progressing on to see if it benefits mitigation or endurance. Fights that are on farm are of really no concern to be optimised.

There are beginning to be cases where 30k+ hp is very useful. For example, Kephess the Undying can chain a wrist laser (~9k) into a power punch (~13.5k unshielded) back to back. This is for an assassin on 16-HM. That's 22.5k damage in a length of time that healer cannot react to (of course they may have a heal queued up). That means Kephess can kill a 25k hp assassin tank at any time if they fall below 90% hp. I would argue that in this case endurance stacking is the way to go.

Another is Stormcaller on 16-NM. Your health is on a roller-coaster for pretty much the whole fight. Giving your healers an extra few seconds to land a heal is crucial. Or even to ignore you for a few seconds and heal others. I guess I will see what the nerf did to the damage output this week.

All I wanted to say is that it's important to think about which approach is best for your current situation.

sankalp's Avatar


sankalp
12.05.2012 , 08:42 PM | #19
What you are describing is situational.

The 2 hits from Kephess going in Unmitigated at a time you are under 90% health, without overcharge saber or medpack and the heals more than 2 secs away is a very very low prob, low enough that it will not happen more than once per kill imo.

yes endurance stacking is helpful, but never at the cost of mitigation. For example. The lazer hits me for 7.x k. My mitigation, reduced the damage by 2k, or adds 2k to my health everytime it gets mitigated as compared to when it does not.

I still believe 28k is the max if you are running a 16m group, and for 2m, 25.4k HP that I run with is ample. NiM EC kephess is the only thing that makes me want to add more end for bleed

RLWalker's Avatar


RLWalker
12.05.2012 , 09:48 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by sankalp View Post
What you are describing is situational.
I couldn't have said it any better myself.