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Time for a PvP Fix

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

SITHKNIGHTT's Avatar


SITHKNIGHTT
11.29.2012 , 01:52 AM | #21
The problem is that a sorc healer who relys on mobility can' t move while healing....!!! If all heals would function while moving the sith inq would be a fun and helpfull class ( pvp )
Let me give you an example: You try to heal a target in BG... Suddenly 3 ppl start to gank you which means you stop healing and make a run for it to stay still again while trying to heal yourself up.... Meanwhile your ally is already, dead... If you had the ability to heal while walking you would be way more efficient and the game would be way more action orientated, like nearly every other mmo!!!
Pls Devs fix using abilities while moving ASAP !!!!!

SITHKNIGHTT's Avatar


SITHKNIGHTT
11.29.2012 , 01:59 AM | #22
The problem is that a sorc healer who relys on mobility can' t move while healing....!!! If all heals would function while moving the sith inq would be a fun and helpfull class ( pvp )
Let me give you an example: You try to heal a target in BG... Suddenly 3 ppl start to gank you which means you stop healing and make a run for it to stay still again while trying to heal yourself up.... Meanwhile your ally is already, dead... If you had the ability to heal while walking you would be way more efficient and the game would be way more action orientated, like nearly every other mmo!!!
Pls Devs fix using abilities while moving ASAP !!!!!

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
11.29.2012 , 03:53 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by SITHKNIGHTT View Post
The problem is that a sorc healer who relys on mobility can' t move while healing....!!!
yes, but that also happens to be one the reasons operative healing is so OP, that an their spam at under 30% health nonsense.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
11.29.2012 , 12:18 PM | #24
When we had the instant DI mobility wasn't such a problem- every 6 seconds you could get an instant heal. Losing that alone killed our healing mobility and thus our survivability as healers or hybrids until the stun bubble came and made lightning hybrids the norm- problem is, they've said they're nerfing the stun bubble, and if past examples of BW nerfs to this class are any example, this nerf is going to to be heavy handed, unfair and offer us zilch in return.


Right now we simply are not being treated like other classes (except maybe mercs)- I mean, look at thundering blast. It does crap damage, it has an auto crit to it in a tree that you need high crit for already, and even with the auto crit is barely worth having.

It's a single target, 2 second cast, 9 second CD ability with a set up... that hits like a wet noodle- you can't even break 5k with it. Compare that to the center of the rage tree- an auto crit smash that crits for 7k, some people have seen up to 10k but I assume that's on pve geared folks- it regularly crits above 5k at the least though... and it's aoe, without much longer of a CD.

Why can't what should be our best lightning ability, that is single target and has a cast time- do the same damage if not more than an instant aoe?

Our burst damage is simply terrible, that needs a fix. Our healer mobility and survivability in general without the stun bubble is garbage- that needs a fix.

It's just disappointing that BW ignores us for over half a year- yet caters to every little thing marauders ask for, and are now planning to nerf us because marauders are whining about the stun bubble. I just don't get how they can be this one sided- it's absurd.

Ariak-'s Avatar


Ariak-
11.29.2012 , 06:43 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
When 1.2 came around, we saw two things. The rise of many other classes, and the monumental crash of our own. Since then, we are a class that even other classes agree can't 1v1, we are a class optimized for a pvp game style that isn't part of this game. We finally caught a break when they gave us a lightning talent that allows us to stun with our static barrier- the bubble- but the minute marauders began to complain, BW promised them this would get a nerf.

Right now many players have returned for the f2p launch- to see what has changed, what is new, and most importantly- what BW has done to restore the faith of all the sorcs who quit following the 1.2 NGE patch that gutted the game. Needless to say- most aren't impressed they're coming back to yet another nerf aimed at appeasing the class currently doing best in pvp.

The stun bubble is already the subject of a long post- so I won't go much into something here that BW has already decided to nerf. I'll instead go over some things that, in return, might make the nerf manageable and stop making us a joke.

What makes a sorcerer poor for pvp?

Ultimately, many of us likely realize we're being targetted, locked down, smashed to bits nonstop every game- and those that have multiple characters see the difference right away, but where is the problem?

Many look at the end of a match and see, as a sorc, they aren't actually doing less healing or damage than other classes, yet as more and more games go by it becomes clearer and clearer you offer less as a sorc.


The problem isn't the overall sustained DPS. Sorcs are good at cheesing the end of match numbers- lots of dots, lots of aoe, and most importantly lots of slow damage and healing. What we don't have is the burst, and the pressure.

Consider if you've ever specced a healing sorc before- when almost any enemy starts to attack you, you have to move- look for LoS from snipers, or try to run from mara, juggs, sins and PTs. When a DPS sorc attacks you though- you do not. You don't worry about being locked out and killed, because you know there is no chance a sorc is going to kill you faster than you can heal up, or lock you down long enough to kill you.

There's two reasons- one, they lack the damage and the density of interrupts that allow that damage to outscale a healer's healing, while all those other classes easily have that ability. Two, sorcs give you no reason to move- other classes if you stand still you'll be obliterated, but against a DPS sorc you can stand still and heal, and it's like being batted by a wet noodle... having to move as a healer though means losing out on healing, so any other class simply has to keep pursuing you and you will die sooner or later.

To make it worse- classes like a marauder will keep you in place, while pounding you with interrupts. When we root another class it gives us a bit of time to move away- when we're rooted though, it gives other classes time to lock us down and lay on damage.

What can we do well though?

We can kite and wear down an enemy over a long period of time. Even so though- other classes have anti kiting tools of their own, so while a game like WoW has kiting classes that are fairly one sided- even kiting we don't have a significant advantage when force charge is on such a short CD, and our kiting abilities are not as good as they should be.

We can support. The stun bubble is a big part of this, giving us the ability to provide good CC for capping. Without it, we generally still have support tools for healing with a tank backing us up.

What can we not do that makes us in need of a fix?

We don't function in the WZ that exist in the same way others do. Now, with the bubble stun we temporarily had a function- to control people going for objectives in WZs- but when that is nerfed, we become very limited in usefulness.

Our lack of burst gives us almost no use on offense and in stopping enemy ball carriers. Simply put, we cannot down a healer defending a turret like others can, we cannot even handle non-healers because our strength is kiting- which takes time. That might be fine in some cases, but in this game you have a very small window of opportunity to kill all defenders and make a capture before they respawn- sorcs are not built for that. Worst, our best builds even further hurt our damage output since we almost must lightning hybrid to have any survivability.

As healers, we have some some defensive function- but, it is no different from any other healer, and we are as if not more reliant on having a tank support us. When targeted, no tank is going to do much to stop a pair or trio of high burst classes from tearing us to pieces. Ultimately, sustained is weak in pvp for a reason, and even weaker when objectives rely more heavily on burst in this game. We are simply poorly made for this game's pvp.


What to do about it?

We need to be brought in line with other classes. We cannot be inferior in defensive CDs, escapes, mobility and burst all at the same time- it doesn't work period, and it isn't working.

So, the main two things that ultimately need to be buffed for when they nerf the bubble stun are- output and mobility. We need to be able to put out damage numbers that can compare burstwise to other classes, and healing numbers that can reasonably keep someone being attacked alive- right now, healing not only is too easy to counter, but damage is so high you don't even need to for several classes. We also need to be able to have great mobility if our only survivable feature is our movement.


I think if these things can get a serious look at and a significant boost- we may see sorcs being contenders once again as they were pre-1.2. It will need to be significant though, because the nerf we got in 1.2 was massive.

Here are some suggestions for things that could achieve this.
Nice work. Way to take the time. Unfortunately, I am uncertain of how often Allison or any other dev actually checks the class forums. I think there are bigger things on their mind. I suppose they figure if someone doesnt like their class, they will just reroll ...... which keeps you paying that much longer. That being said ...........


I wouldnt mind if they put a cool down on affliction or removed some of the AOE potential from death field/force storm/CL and gave us some MAJOR upgrades on the damage of other casts ... this could increase the burst of our class while maintaining their metrics. Everyone knows we can match alot of classes in the damage column because of meaningless dots/aoe that noone even bothers to purge....

Also, if I were you, i would put this in the pvp forum as this is moreso a pvp related issue ..... it is more likely to be seen there.
Ariak / Ultima Online - Baja - 7X Precast Hally Mage
Ariak / Dark Ages of Camelot - Igraine - Ranger
Ariak / SW:TOR - Prophecy of the Five - Lvl 55 PT hybrid
Rayste / SW:TOR - Prophecy of the Five - Lvl 55 Jug

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
11.29.2012 , 08:17 PM | #26
Perhaps it would be better there- however, the pvp forum goes rapidly, and is stuffed with nonsense. This forum has a slower pace and IF they were to so much as glance at this forum they'd see threads like this one on the first page.

The pvp forum is simply so full of doom and gloom, insult wars and general misinformation that I doubt anyone takes it seriously (though, I'm very disappointed when they finally did post in a thread it was in the one asking for a nerf to sorcs- and it was BW saying that nerf was coming).

I pointed out the negative aspects now simply to give a clear idea of where I am coming from and also why the fixes I'm asking for would fit- to hopefully make this a constructive thread. So far I think it is being constructive- all we need now is for the devs to look at this forum for a bit and actually take note of what we are saying after months of dead silence while we enjoy being free kills in pvp- which is what people are unanimously saying in the feedback thread BW posted then promptly ignored.


I understand full well that they cannot answer something if they aren't certain, that leads to people being angry if it doesn't happen later on- BW is giving hints at content updates- both to pvp and pve- in the near future, but they need to realize that content doesn't matter if the gameplay and balance isn't working.

1.2 saw us at the end of an extremely unjust and very painful nerf stick- every single pvp sorc I knew was furious, and many did quit the next month after trying the differences. We were told by other classes to 'just adapt' but we weren't given anything new to adapt to- we still had- and have- the same worthless pure builds we always did and were always not playing before- they just took away the builds that were both viable and enjoyable.

I did want this to get looked at now- because right now many have returned for f2p launch. Sorcs right now though are looking in dismay as the class balance has gotten worse, and are returning just in time for BW to announce they're going to give sorcs another nerf because marauders have asked for it.

It's not exactly a good thing to come back to- and if nothing is said about helping out sorcs a bit (it should be noted sorcs aren't overperforming in pve- so anyone saying you can't buff pvp burst because it'll imbalance pve hasn't looked at the parse logs of the top operation teams at all)- we're going to see an entire AC, one that I should note has gone from being the most played class in the game to one of the least played- take a big f2p hit to the numbers.

BW- you can get sorc subs by showing us you are listening, this continued silence and continued nerfs though aren't going to keep us playing and paying.

APeckenpaugh's Avatar


APeckenpaugh
11.29.2012 , 08:54 PM | #27 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
There's too much here to comment on, but I noticed a lot of people repeating "the bubble is getting nerfed. BW already said so." So I figured that could use some clarification.

We're currently undergoing a lot of class rebalance for a future major patch, so it's an understatement to say that things aren't locked down yet. However, the problem with Backlash (Lightning's incapacitate on Static Barrier) is mostly that it can be applied to any target, making an entire team of allies stun-bubbled. Since this is such great utility for the Lightning Sorcerer, we don't want to change the effect of Backlash, but we are considering making the Backlash effect only apply to the original caster - so you only get a Backlash when you put your Static Barrier on yourself.

That's just the current idea. We don't have any plans on making Static Barrier or Backlash worse than it currently is for the Sorcerer that uses it.

We're aware that even this change lowers the amount of group support Lightning offers, so that's something we have to figure out before we can pull the trigger on Backlash.

I wish I could tell you guys more, but there isn't enough locked down yet. Rest assured, it's not as simple as "too good - nerf. Next."
Austin Peckenpaugh
Class Designer

Sirokai's Avatar


Sirokai
11.29.2012 , 10:23 PM | #28
I saw the 'bioware staff post' symbol next to this thread and I got excited thinking they may have acknowledged sorc issues in pvp. lolnope, no post from bioware. sad times.
Sith Sorcerer (Pandemonium) - Female, Sith Pureblood; Imperial Agent (Sidelined) - Male, Chiss; Jedi Knight (Lamuh) - Male, Sith Pureblood; Trooper (Khaligto) - Female, Mirialin

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.30.2012 , 12:16 AM | #29
One thing that could be considered would be a CC/snare/root immunity when our bubble is up.

That would allow the sorc some free time to kite and get an advantage before being cced, and torn apart.

Of course gunslinger would still bust it rather fast, but just throwing the idea out there, since the bigger problem seems to be vs hybrid guardians and sentinels.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
11.30.2012 , 04:58 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
One thing that could be considered would be a CC/snare/root immunity when our bubble is up.

That would allow the sorc some free time to kite and get an advantage before being cced, and torn apart.

Of course gunslinger would still bust it rather fast, but just throwing the idea out there, since the bigger problem seems to be vs hybrid guardians and sentinels.
We need MORE damage and LOTS of it.

A full WH dps Sorc has to have

Death Field and Chain Lightning have to hit for 8k, Death Field changed to 5 targets.
DoTs need to hit alot harder. A full dotted up toon with creeping terror, affliction and crushing darkness should be losing 5-6k a GCD. 8k with Death Mark ticks. A 3 dot set up ought to have some payback... but alas. They should also be unpurgable save by a healer specced into buffed cleanse. Shroud etc shouldn't work, if deathmark is on the sin/shadow.
Force Lightning/Lightning Strike needs a 50% damage buff.
Thundering Blast needs a proc to be made instant and hit for 6k.

IF we had these, they can justify our current supposed role as "kiter" and "glass cannon". We hit like a truck, but go down quick since we have no real defensive cooldowns.

The sad part, I'm not even joking. Heck I'd even toss Sorcs, shroud and still call it balanced with the hard hits i see floating aorund wzs. I rarely PvP on my sorc now, it's just not fun anymore.