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Mercenary Manifesto


Bryyn's Avatar


Bryyn
11.21.2012 , 07:07 PM | #51
Just my opinion here, but if one of our missile abilities were to undergo a few effective changes, perhaps our survivability, or our inability to deal with melee classes, would be in a better situation.

We could be given something similar to Missile Blast where a long-range knockback could be applied to, with of course a reasonable cooldown or long enough cast time to prevent knockback-chaining.

There is of course the possibility of just increasing the threshold and duration of Energy Shield. Nothing near static barrier, but enough to increase our utility in PvP.
Ryllen - Mercenary
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.21.2012 , 07:16 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
- change Jet Escape, a tier 4 ability, to the following: Reduces the cooldown of Jet Boost by [2.5 seconds / 5 seconds] and Determination by [15 seconds / 30 seconds] AND you have a [50 / 100]% to increase your movement speed by 30% for 4s
I don't have read the full thread, but I assume that the bonus on speed occurs on use of previously said abilities... Because it's not perfectly clear.

But I have to say it's rare to see a buff request which doesn't go obviously overboard by asking damage bonuses here and there. I'm not a position to say that the proposed changed are fine, but at least, I say they seem fine.

I'm just a bit worried about Muzzle fluting because I'm used to have the cast time to help managing ammo (Commando) and not burn my ammo too fast and then gimping myself because of low ammo regeneration. The proposed talent make also arguable the usefullness of Stabilizers, because it would work only on Unload (I hardly see any pushbacks on channeled abilities even without talent reducing them) and Concussion Missile.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 07:19 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by dejavy View Post
Insta tracer/grav would be kind of cheat tbh and would really break the balance. I'm commando since beta and returned to the AC after vanguard/sniper valor 70+. I wish i had this insta cheat but having 2 pieces of pve set bonus we'd become ultra insta terminators dealing 9k every 3 casts. Unacceptable.

ES/RS with immunity to knockbacks and other CC sounds more realistic to me. We'd have time to burst our melee target being unCCable just like sniper/GS with their 20sec immunity to EVERYTHING. ES/RS can become a mirror of the snipers skill. 1 min CD, 20 sec immune in their case. In Commando/merc case it could save RS/ES timers, coz we are still able to heal.

Yes, we definitely need roots/stock strike pushback+roots/pure kite abilities. Not that Fullauto/Unload shi* with 2sec kite but REAL insta kite skill which wouldn't need to be supported by constant shooting or chanelling like it happens in pyro/assault tree with autoshot. Let it be Explosive round - an ABSOLUTELY USELESS(!) skill today. It's instant and deals crap damage but could slow targets for 30-40-50% i don't know.

The only fear i have is that devs will delay any works on merc/mando till 1.7 which could take place only in march/april 2013. I'm inclined to believe it coz BW devs are not designers but decorators now. They prefer giving us great looking gear and doesn't matter that you're smashed in 3 seconds after a marauder/sent attacked you. Who cares except trooper/BHs themselves.
and how is the damage different now from when youre able to freecast? every 3 casts you can do 9k damage. making them instant does not change the amount of damage they do all of the sudden.

you cannot just change Energy Shield as you suggest. it is already a key function of the combat medic tree, and doing what you suggest would made it massively OP for that tree.

regarding what you call "insta-kite", i suggested that for arsenal spec, Jet Boost give a 4s, 30% speed boost after the knockback. i think that would fulfill what youre looking for there.

Explosive Round is a good candidate for an on-demand snare. Ive actually posted in the posted in the past for it to fulfill that function, but it looks like I forgot to include it here. Thanks for reminding me, I will add it to the original post.
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
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cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 07:21 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
I don't have read the full thread, but I assume that the bonus on speed occurs on use of previously said abilities... Because it's not perfectly clear.

But I have to say it's rare to see a buff request which doesn't go obviously overboard by asking damage bonuses here and there. I'm not a position to say that the proposed changed are fine, but at least, I say they seem fine.

I'm just a bit worried about Muzzle fluting because I'm used to have the cast time to help managing ammo (Commando) and not burn my ammo too fast and then gimping myself because of low ammo regeneration. The proposed talent make also arguable the usefullness of Stabilizers, because it would work only on Unload (I hardly see any pushbacks on channeled abilities even without talent reducing them) and Concussion Missile.
yeah, the speed boost would come after you used the knockback skill, sorry if it sounds a little vague.

the GCD and cast time are the same (1.5s) so you actually would not notice any averse ammo problems.

i think that stabilizers would still be worthwhile, as pushback on Unload can cause you to lose a tick of damage if you suffer enough of it, and concussion missile has such a long cast time that without the pushback resistance, it is almost un-usable against someone attacking you. Maybe, to continue having it be appealing to take, make it extend to ALL casted abilities while using the High Velocity Gas Cylinder?
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.21.2012 , 07:28 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
the GCD and cast time are the same (1.5s) so you actually would not notice any averse ammo problems.
Hm it changes things a little, because even if the time used doesn't change, the instant when ammo is consummed is not the same. With instantaneous abilities, ammo is consummed at t=0s, while with cast time it is consummed at t=1.5s. I use it as a short regeneration time frame for exemple after a Plasma Grenade because its cost is very high. I guess using Hammer shots inbetween will do the same while adding damage during the time frame...

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 07:38 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
Hm it changes things a little, because even if the time used doesn't change, the instant when ammo is consummed is not the same. With instantaneous abilities, ammo is consummed at t=0s, while with cast time it is consummed at t=1.5s. I use it as a short regeneration time frame for exemple after a Plasma Grenade because its cost is very high. I guess using Hammer shots inbetween will do the same while adding damage during the time frame...
the time passed between ammo consumption is still 1.5s though. so the only difference is on the first use of the skill. during the GCD you will be regen'ing ammo the same as if you were casting another grav round.

so it would go like this:

GR (consume 2 ammo) -> 1.5s GCD (regen ammo during this time) -> GR (consume 2 ammo) -> etc

currently, it goes like this:

start GR cast -> 1.5s -> GR (consume 2 ammo) -> start GR cast -> 1.5s (regen ammo during this time) -> GR (consume 2 ammo)

the time between grav rounds would remain the same
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

dejavy's Avatar


dejavy
11.21.2012 , 08:30 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
and how is the damage different now from when youre able to freecast? every 3 casts you can do 9k damage. making them instant does not change the amount of damage they do all of the sudden.
Yes, but while casting you can be shutdown somehow. If you're unshutable it's just senseless and game breaking thing. Imagine if maras could deal their damage at 20m or so There's no sense to call them melee then. THere must be some kind of restrictions on a class to make the whole gameplay balanced. If rangers can deal their full ultra damage without restriction, what's the sence to play a melee then? We play rangers coz we don't like to wave a stick and do our work without melee mess. It's kind of price for being rangers.

If we can insta shoot grav/tracer+HIB+Demo, stickynade, full auto, it's just insane unstopable burst mate. The devs just won't do it. I would really love to try your insta boom plan on PTS and see what happens. But i don't think it's reasonable even to ask.

You're absolutely right saying that we are so easily shut down and i really want to change it. It would be fair if we have a possibility to cast our grav/tracer without interruption. But I don't know how it can be realised. WIth RS/ES or somehow else but we must think it up to solve the "shutdown problem".

Maybe we can involve Charged round/Power shot to find the way out.
What if CR/PS are instant and could stack the GravR/TracerM or Charged barrel/Tracer lock bonuses or BOTH of them? They are Kinetic and don't deal too much damage even now. Their damage can actually be even reduced and it wouldn't harm PVEers anyhow who don't use it anyway.

-So, our ChargedR/PowerS will become our instant stacker ability activating HIB/RailS and DemoR/HeatS. Its spam wouldn't be hurtfull for whiners dealing say 2k crit. And when we are untouched we can keep spaming our channeling GR/TM with its full elemental damage. PVPers and PVEers are happy.

What do you think?

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 08:50 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by dejavy View Post
Yes, but while casting you can be shutdown somehow. If you're unshutable it's just senseless and game breaking thing. Imagine if maras could deal their damage at 20m or so There's no sense to call them melee then. THere must be some kind of restrictions on a class to make the whole gameplay balanced. If rangers can deal their full ultra damage without restriction, what's the sence to play a melee then? We play rangers coz we don't like to wave a stick and do our work without melee mess.

If we can insta shoot grav/tracer+HIB+Demo, stickynade, full auto, it's just insane unstopable burst mate. The devs just won't do it. I would really love to try your insta boom plan on PTS and see what happens. But i don't think it's reasonable even to ask.

You're absolutely right saying that we are so easily shut down and i really want to change it. It would be fair if we have a possibility to cast our grav/tracer without interruption. But I don't know how it can be realised. WIth RS/ES or somehow else but we must think it up to solve the "shutdown problem".

Maybe we can invole Charged round/Power shot to find the way out.
What if CR/PS are instant and could stack the GravR/TracerM or Charged barrel/Tracer lock bonuses or BOTH of them? They are Kinetic and don't deal too much damage even now. Their damage can actually be even reduced and it wouldn't harm PVEers anyhow who don't use it anyway.

-So, our ChargedR/PowerS will become our instant stacker ability activating HIB/RailS and DemoR/HeatS. Its spam wouldn't be hurtfull for whiners dealing say 2k crit. And when we are untouched we can keep spaming our channeling GR/TM with its full elemental damage. PVPers and PVEers are happy.

What do you think?
Charged Bolts/Power Shot being instant and functioning the same as Grav Round/Tracer Missile is the same as Tracer Missile being instant.

I can hit for 2.5-3k with Power Shot on crits. Occasionally I have ~3.5k crits on it that come out of the blue. The damage between tracer missile and power shot is not that different; the difference is that Power Shot suffers from defensive rolls, while Tracer Missile does not.

The ability to be shut down should not be a balancing mechanic. Merc should not be balanced around the idea that we need to be interrupted in order for things to be fair. I dont even understand where that mindset comes from.

Right now, if you are left to free-cast as a Merc you can barely keep pace with the damage output of any other DPS class. Is our burst insane-unstoppable right now? I continually see people actually say that Merc DPS needs a buff, because our burst is sub-par (not that I agree with those people, but it seems to be a widespread opinion).

So how drastically different would our damage output be with TM/PS on instant casts? Free-casting damage would not change one bit, the change would be that when melee opponents decide its our turn to die, we actually have a shot at killing them, rather than just hoping to run away and that they give up chasing so we can heal up and get back to the fight.

Merc is a DPS class. Let me do my job as effectively as other DPS classes.
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

dejavy's Avatar


dejavy
11.21.2012 , 09:02 PM | #59
Well, Ok
BTW, if it's instant, we'll be able to spam only gravs then recharge and spam only them again. How many can we spam in a row then? 10? I'm afraid we'll become arcane wow hunters then 5 gravs, demo, hib, full auto and if the target is still alive, grav the rest of your ammo and it's done. Nice gamepley.

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
11.21.2012 , 09:13 PM | #60
Making tracer missile/ power shot instant cast does not make mercs unstoppable. Unload, Death from above, and such are still cast abilities that can be interrupted. Tracer is our set-up ability, not our main damage dealer. It would still cost heat to cast so only inexperienced players would try to spam it endlessly. And then, of course, get slaughtered once they overheat.

A merc can still be shut down and defeated with instant cast. With Cash's proposed changes we have a chance to escape and to go down fighting if it comes to it. Left unchanged, mercs are free kills that can not flee and who's feeble attempts to fight back get interrupted.

Cash is being reasonable with his suggestions. There is no request for damage buffs or even new abilities. He doesn't even ask for interrupt immunity for our cast abilities. Instead, he asks for tweaks to existing game abilities that would take minimal Dev effort to implement. These suggestions do not give mercs any undue advantage over another class. Instead, they offer the opportunity for the merc to be competitive in PvP.
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