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Mercenary Manifesto


cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 04:55 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Warshades View Post
obviously I cant reason with you, so I'll leave the thread with this....

PTs/Vanguards had something like you wanted, good dmg that could be done from range. They got nerfed all the hell because of it. Now you want what they had x10. It will be a cold day in hell when they let that happen. I might eat those words one day, only tie will tell, but I gaurentee you wont see me playing anything other than a merc if it does happen. You ask for too much.
Nerfed to hell? Im sorry what? Powertech is still one of the top 3 classes in the game

Powertechs can still hang at range and throw out Rail Shots (their #1 damage ability). But they are massively effective <10m, which is where the vast majority of combat in PvP occurs. Melee and hybrid-melee classes have a massive advantage over Mercs right now. What I ask is to simply even the playing field.

And you dont play a Merc do you? Which means everything you said is based merely on speculation, and what you *think* playing a Merc is like. And trust me, what you *think* is clearly not what the reality of the situation is
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
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ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.21.2012 , 05:13 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
I will remove the damage reductions if this seems to be such a massive sticking point for you PvE people. it makes no difference to me.

As far as instant cast tracer/power shot would create imbalance in PvP. There is no such thing as "tactical interrupt immunity" when there are more ways to be interrupted that just interrupt skills. The things you suggested would turn us into Snipers, and I did not roll a Merc to become a Sniper with 2 pistols instead of a rifle. Melee opponents have absolutely zero problem getting in range, and staying in range. And it has been like that since the launch of the game. Instant abilities allow Merc to not be immediately shutdown as soon as they are under pressure from melee opponents, which is MASSIVELY important for a DPS class.

and just so you know, when they nerfed damage by 10%, it was only 10%. and the difference was only 10%.

Merc does not need more abilities to create separation control. And that is a bandaid fix at best, as it does not solve the crux of the problem. Which is that Merc is 100% dependent upon casted abilities to be effective, and has no way to resist having those casts interrupted. The vast majority of PvP engagements in this game occur within 10m. This is because of map design and objective placements. Merc needs ways to remain effective at those distances, and casted abilities at that range are a MASSIVE liability
Tactical Interrupt Immunity would be something akin to Hold the Line, granting immunity to leaps and interrupts for 8 seconds with a cooldown of 30 seconds (interrupt to movement controlling effects a possibility too I suppose. Not like vanguards don't already get this, and the uptime would be less than Entrench/Hunker Down). This allows Arsenal/Gunnery to get a setup done and finish with a burst. Adding roots and whatnot not only allow separation but are crucial team utility abilities. Also more abilities to maintain separation is more in the line of "small gradual changes" that BW should do. Big huge drastic changes is one of the things that got us in this mess in the first place.

Also if you want to beat melee then 10m is all the range you have to maintain, and there are in fact plenty of opportunities to separate from the main furball. Range isn't much of an advantage, but it can be exploited if we can maintain it.

If by "turn us into snipers" you mean "make us an effective ranged turret in PVP" then yeah, that's what I want. Not in exactly in the same way, but sorry that's the price you pay for complete effectiveness from 30m. Is it fair with the gap closers in game? Not really. They focused way more on giving melee the ability to deal with ranged than they did giving the ranged the ability to deal with melee, commando/merc especially and most obviously.

What is your view for the class? Instant abilities really do mess with the balance too much in the other direction. Leaving things as they are is unacceptable. If gunnery is gonna be viable in PVP it's going to be as a ranged turret which means it needs to be able to get casts off, but SHOULDN'T be changed into something it isn't. Assault/Pyro should be more mobile and just like our PT/VG cousins should be able to snare on demand with their main spam ability used to reset HiB/RS. Changing the Endurance Talent to this would be my suggestion, and like I said put a talent high up in the tree to make PS/CB instant cast.
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gluefoot's Avatar


gluefoot
11.21.2012 , 05:16 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Nerfed to hell? Im sorry what? Powertech is still one of the top 3 classes in the game

Powertechs can still hang at range and throw out Rail Shots (their #1 damage ability). But they are massively effective <10m, which is where the vast majority of combat in PvP occurs. Melee and hybrid-melee classes have a massive advantage over Mercs right now. What I ask is to simply even the playing field.

And you dont play a Merc do you? Which means everything you said is based merely on speculation, and what you *think* playing a Merc is like. And trust me, what you *think* is clearly not what the reality of the situation is
You sir are a bigot. Let me turn your words back on yourself and say that what you *think* is clearly not the reality of the situation. People on this thread have said that instant TM changes the class mechanic. Absolutely it does. We would no longer be a ranged class, but we would be like a melee class in the final phase of the final fight in TFB. No way should that happen. The reason we are not accepted in warzones is because we have no utility unless we are healers. We also have zero useful instant abilities, no kiting abilities, and no escape methods like instant air mez. We need these things to be viable. Getting an interrupt was a small step but one in the right direction.

A decent change might be to adjust Tech Override to change its function based on cell type. A ranged root, a root on knockback, and a 10m mez would be faur, even if they had to be specced into. Tech override could be changed such that it gave interrupt immunity and given a shorter cooldown.

I have played a Gunnery commando since early access. Do not call me inexperienced.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 06:24 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by gluefoot View Post
You sir are a bigot. Let me turn your words back on yourself and say that what you *think* is clearly not the reality of the situation. People on this thread have said that instant TM changes the class mechanic. Absolutely it does. We would no longer be a ranged class, but we would be like a melee class in the final phase of the final fight in TFB. No way should that happen. The reason we are not accepted in warzones is because we have no utility unless we are healers. We also have zero useful instant abilities, no kiting abilities, and no escape methods like instant air mez. We need these things to be viable. Getting an interrupt was a small step but one in the right direction.

A decent change might be to adjust Tech Override to change its function based on cell type. A ranged root, a root on knockback, and a 10m mez would be faur, even if they had to be specced into. Tech override could be changed such that it gave interrupt immunity and given a shorter cooldown.

I have played a Gunnery commando since early access. Do not call me inexperienced.
the reason we are not accepted in warzones is because we are the most easily shut down DPS class in the game.

zero instant abilities? hmm, there is some irony there.......

*** is instant air mez? that is not a real thing.....

a 10m mez? are you aware that we already have a 30m mez? id rather not have that bit of CC nerfed too........

the mechanics of arsenal merc is this: rely on tracer missile to buff Rail Shot, Unload, and Heatseeker Missiles. under pressure, good luck being able to stand and cast 1, let alone the 3 you really need, tracer missiles in order to be effective. and good luck proc'ing barrage when you cant get a single cast off.

the things you say we need to be viable, we dont need. i dont need an escape mechanism so that i can run away more effectively. i dont need "instant air mez", whatever the heck that is.

what i need is a way to continue being an effective DPS class. instant tracer missile/power shot actually provide utility at the same time as providing mobility. you want better kiting effectiveness? you will never, ever be effective at kiting even a little bit when relying on casted abilities. instant abilities gives you the ability to kite more effectively that we can now currently.

and, can i also point out that i suggested a ton of other things besides instant tracer missile/power shot? did you even read my entire original post, or did you just come to jump on the bandwagon of people calling me a moron for thinking that instant cast tracer missile/powershot would drastically improve Mercs effectiveness, and bring us up to the balance of other DPS classes.
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
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cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 06:33 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
What is your view for the class? Instant abilities really do mess with the balance too much in the other direction. Leaving things as they are is unacceptable. If gunnery is gonna be viable in PVP it's going to be as a ranged turret which means it needs to be able to get casts off, but SHOULDN'T be changed into something it isn't. Assault/Pyro should be more mobile and just like our PT/VG cousins should be able to snare on demand with their main spam ability used to reset HiB/RS. Changing the Endurance Talent to this would be my suggestion, and like I said put a talent high up in the tree to make PS/CB instant cast.
Instant abilities would bring Merc in balance with other classes.

have you tried to take a Merc into a competitive situation in the last month? try to do *anything* as a merc when you have coordinated teams instantly eliminating you from the fight. try casting a single tracer missile when 2-3 juggs/maras leap to you, chain interrupting you casts. even as a pyrotech, there is nothing you can do in that situation, because without casts youve got 2 abilities that will do noticeable damage (which are dependent on your set-up casted abilities) and then you can pretty much do nothing but run for your life. instant casts mean you can fight back, and maintain your DPS output in a competitive environment.

if you think that a Merc actually being able to fulfill its role as a DPS class is going to throw off balance, then i dont know what to tell you.
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

Dovahbrah's Avatar


Dovahbrah
11.21.2012 , 06:35 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by gluefoot View Post
Let me turn your words back on yourself and say that what you *think* is clearly not the reality of the situation.
Irony.

Quote:
People on this thread have said that instant TM changes the class mechanic.
And people have said that it doesn't. Your point?

Quote:
Absolutely it does.
Absolutely it doesn't. See how easy that was?

Quote:
We would no longer be a ranged class
Yeah, that totally makes sense. Cause if we have instant powershot/tracer, we're totally going to run into melee all the time, you know, with all of our awesome defensive cooldowns. Amirite?

Quote:
but we would be like a melee class in the final phase of the final fight in TFB.
I always have to laugh when PvE'rs try to comment on class balance. Stick to your scripted computer fights and let the PvP'rs tell you what's up, please.

Quote:
The reason we are not accepted in warzones is because we have no utility unless we are healers.
That's not the only reason. The reason is that every other class does what we can do, and they do it better. It's not just our lacking utility; it's our lacking survivability and mobility. Once a *competent* melee is on us, the class is pretty much shut down. We are the easiest kill in warzones by far, and I always consider them to be free kills on my other classes. Utility is just the tip of the iceberg.

Quote:
We also have zero useful instant abilities
And when cash proposes instant TM, you whine about it. Make sense much?

Quote:
We need these things to be viable. Getting an interrupt was a small step but one in the right direction.
Yet you're complaining about his proposed changes?

Quote:
I have played a Gunnery commando since early access. Do not call me inexperienced.
Experienced commandos don't play gunnery in PvP.
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Mercury_Down's Avatar


Mercury_Down
11.21.2012 , 06:45 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Dear BiowarEA: These changes (or changes like them) need to be made the the Mercenary/Commando advanced class in 1.6. Im going to use Merc terminology throughout this, but obviously Commando equivalents apply. Lets get started.....

Arsenal Tree:
- change Muzzle Fluting, a tier 2 box, from .5s cast reduction to 2s cast reduction. this makes tracer missle and power shot instant.
- power barrier -> change this back to 2% damage reduction per stack
- change Afterbuners, a tier 3 box, to the following: Rocket Punch has a [50 / 100]% chance to KNOCKBACK AND IMMOBILIZE the target for 4 seconds. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. In addition, Jet Boost's knockback effect is stronger and pushes enemies [2 / 4] meters further away.
- change Jet Escape, a tier 4 ability, to the following: Reduces the cooldown of Jet Boost by [2.5 seconds / 5 seconds] and Determination by [15 seconds / 30 seconds] AND you have a [50 / 100]% to increase your movement speed by 30% for 4s


Pyrotech Tree:
- switch System Calibrations (tier 1 Pyrotech) with Hired Muscle (tier 1 Combat Medic).
- change Hired Muscle to [2 / 4]% tech and ranged critical chance increase

- change Deguass, a tier 3 box, to the following: Energy Shield has a [50 / 100]% chance to remove all movement-impairing effects when activated and a [50 / 100]% chance to be immune to all movement-impairing effects for the duration of Energy Shield


Combat Medic Tree:
- switch System Calibrations (tier 1 Pyrotech) with Hired Muscle (tier 1 Combat Medic).
- change System Calibrations to increase alacrity by [1 / 3 / 5]%

- change Superheated Gas, a tier 2 box, to vent 16 heat (up from 8)
- allow Kolto Shell to be applied to an unlimited number of allies, and reduce its heat cost to 8
- change Cure Mind, a tier 5 box to the following: Cure now removes negative mental AND FORCE effects and heals the target for X
- reduce cooldown of Emergency Scan to 18s



These are all relatively simple changes to make. Now, before I get a ton of people telling me these changes would imbalance PvE or make Merc OP in PvP, realize that none of these changes will affect damage output or heal output. They are, for the most part, all changes to increase mobility and utiltiy of the Merc class.

Instant cast Tracer Missile and Power Shot will not affect damage output in an averse manner. The current cooldown is 1.5s, the same as 1 GCD. Instant cast merely allows Merc to maintain damage output while mobile, one of its most limiting factors in PvP. In PvE, this will have a minimal affect as a Merc has ample opportunities in PvE to stand and free cast. To counter the increase frequency with which Mercs wil be able to use Tracer Missile and Power Shot, the damage should be reduced. In exchange, the damage out Mercs high damage skills (Heatseeker Missiles / Thermal Detonator) should be increased to shift the lost damage output to the back-end of a Mercs rotation. Overall, the affect should produce similar damage outputs to what are currently achievable.

I encourage players to show their support for Mercs, who have become the joke of PvP over the last 6 months. Im more than willing to discuss why i think these mechanics are necessary, as I do think all of these changes *need* to be made.

With a new warzone in 1.6, there will be more focus on PvP. Overall class balance needs to be addressed, and these changes will bring Merc up to a level where they can effectively compete.
I agree with most of your proposed changes but I disagree with lowering the damage on TM/GR and PS/CB. Any additional damage gained from making these instant is not going to make Mercs/Commandos OP. Keeping the damage the same along with the other proposed changes would make them something they have not been in a long time...competitive.

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.21.2012 , 06:54 PM | #48
I like the cast time aspect of arsenal and it is what makes it require awareness. Arsenal just needs a passive that doesn't allow leaps from targets over 15 or 20m away and a jetpack blink. Maybe a couple % bonus to dmg but not too much.

dejavy's Avatar


dejavy
11.21.2012 , 06:59 PM | #49
Insta tracer/grav would be kind of cheat tbh and would really break the balance. I'm commando since beta and returned to the AC after vanguard/sniper valor 70+. I wish i had this insta cheat but having 2 pieces of pve set bonus we'd become ultra insta terminators dealing 9k every 3 casts. Unacceptable.

ES/RS with immunity to knockbacks and other CC sounds more realistic to me. We'd have time to burst our melee target being unCCable just like sniper/GS with their 20sec immunity to EVERYTHING. ES/RS can become a mirror of the snipers skill. 1 min CD, 20 sec immune in their case. In Commando/merc case it could save RS/ES timers, coz we are still able to heal.

Yes, we definitely need roots/stock strike pushback+roots/pure kite abilities. Not that Fullauto/Unload shi* with 2sec kite but REAL insta kite skill which wouldn't need to be supported by constant shooting or chanelling like it happens in pyro/assault tree with autoshot. Let it be Explosive round - an ABSOLUTELY USELESS(!) skill today. It's instant and deals crap damage but could slow targets for 30-40-50% i don't know.

The only fear i have is that devs will delay any works on merc/mando till 1.7 which could take place only in march/april 2013. I'm inclined to believe it coz BW devs are not designers but decorators now. They prefer giving us great looking gear and doesn't matter that you're smashed in 3 seconds after a marauder/sent attacked you. Who cares except trooper/BHs themselves.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 07:03 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Mercury_Down View Post
I agree with most of your proposed changes but I disagree with lowering the damage on TM/GR and PS/CB. Any additional damage gained from making these instant is not going to make Mercs/Commandos OP. Keeping the damage the same along with the other proposed changes would make them something they have not been in a long time...competitive.
I removed it from my suggestions
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads