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Mercenary Manifesto


cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 03:50 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Warshades View Post
Simple. Being rooted and snared dont prevent you from shooting someone. But it does prevent me as a melee from hitting someone greater than 4m away. Just lke interupts stop your dmg, but do nothing to mine.
Im sorry, but what??

That is why melee classes have GAP CLOSERS. Melee classes have ZERO problem closing the distance on range right now. This is a non-issue


edit for your last post: I am not changing the mechanics of the class. All of the changes I have suggested would actually allow Merc to more effectively use the current class mechanics.

Flying-Brian's Avatar


Flying-Brian
11.21.2012 , 03:58 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
I am not changing the mechanics of the class. All of the changes I have suggested would actually allow Merc to more effectively use the current class mechanics.
Only in pvp, your changes lower pve dps.

Warshades's Avatar


Warshades
11.21.2012 , 03:58 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Arsenal has a 70% slow on Unload for the exact purpose of slowing melee opponents approach.

You CANNOT maintain separation with melee when you are as dependent upon casted abilities as Merc is. The best you can hope for is 1-2 casts before the melee is on you again, and that is assuming they do not have a leap cd up. Maintaining separation is only pat of the problem.

I will gladly accept the fact that melee opponents can catch up to me, if I am still allowed to maintain my DPS while running. If you stand still, you are dead against a melee opponent (unless they are terrible). And in the end, this is a team based game. There are plenty of classes that ooze utility in the form of roots/snares/CC, let them keep that role and allow Merc to do its role effectively
I say your wanting to change the mechanics. You want to play like a melee doing dmg on the move but nt required to maintain a 4 m. range. Thats where you dont understand the impact it will have. Let me put it another way. What if snipers could do the same dmg, without having to use cover and all insta dmg. You would see warzones with 8 snipers and 8 gunslingers in every match. What your asking for is Godmode in PvP. The ability to max dmg from max range with minimal ways to defend against it.
And my focus IS on playability..... every change I have suggested would improve the playability of Merc
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

Henu's Avatar


Henu
11.21.2012 , 04:02 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Tracer Missile already hits easily for 2.5-3k. for a low heat, spammable set-up ability that damage is quite high.

take 15% away from Tracer Missile, and you are looking at 2.2-2.5k damage per missile. over 3 missiles, that is a loss of ~900-1500 potential damage.

heatseeker hits for 4.5-5k. increase that by 15%, and it goes to 5.2k-5.8k. it would likely be reasonable to hit 6k from time to time if you are optimized for power stacking

so you are trading ~900-1500 damage on the front end, for ~800-1000 damage on the backend. a potential loss of 100-500 overall damage is minimal, which is the impact that i said it would have in PvE.

and can i ask why youre taking critical reactions in your build? you need to spend 7 points in combat medic in order to get that. Arsenal is a DPS class, you could be getting better benefits for that many points than .1s off your TM cast time. not to mention that .1s is literally going to change nothing.

might i add that overall, instant TM/PS would likely benefit PvE play. there are many fight mechanics that require players to stay mobile for extended periods. instead of ending up spamming rapid shots, you will still be able to use tracer missile and/or power shot. overall, i think that would be a benefit for PvE

edit: i completely read over your comment about how Mercs would not be able to be "locked down". being "locked down" should not be a balance mechanism. Arsenal Merc is nearly impossible to play in a mildly competitive PvP scenario. The number of ways to have casts interrupted in this game is extensive, and Merc needs a way to maintain its DPS output. Merc would still be able to be "locked down" the same way as any other class: CC, snare/roots, group focus fire.
thank you, im glad you said it before me :P
Kript - SNX - Harby, Yes its a PVE server but honestly there isn't a lot of open world PVP on the other servers anyway.

Warshades's Avatar


Warshades
11.21.2012 , 04:07 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Im sorry, but what??

That is why melee classes have GAP CLOSERS. Melee classes have ZERO problem closing the distance on range right now. This is a non-issue


edit for your last post: I am not changing the mechanics of the class. All of the changes I have suggested would actually allow Merc to more effectively use the current class mechanics.
wow i didnt think i needed to elaborate on this.

You are a ranged dps. If you get rooted or snared you can still do your ranged dmg as you dont need movement to do so. Thus roots and snares have min. affect on you.

Melee classes have to maintain a 4m range. So when they get rooted or snared they can not maintain a 4m range. Thus roots and snares DO impact melee.

The reverse is also true regarding interupts but I'm not going to waste my time explaining it.

As far as mechanics go you are able to do dmg from ranged at the cost of a cast time. That is the mechanic at work. Your playability is how you can work within the mechanic. Like how you can maintain separation or maintain dmg with melee on you.

Thus, if you change the cast vs insta cast, your changing the class mechanic. What you need to do is find ways to improve playability without changing the mechanic. You dont become better at your mechanic, you create a new mechanic that in every game that has tried it has had huge balance issues. I'll give an example. Runes of magic has a scout class that can do as you want, do all dmg, from range, while moving. They became the most powerful class combination in the game for PvP, while minimal impact on pve. Or take the original Bonedancer from DAOC, again easily the most powerful class in the game until it was nerfed. There are reasons why we maintain the existing mechanics for ranged dps.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 04:13 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Flying-Brian View Post
Only in pvp, your changes lower pve dps.
by the exact same amount it would lower PvP dps output. with the damage changes i suggested, you would be losing ~200-500 damage every 15 seconds. so lets say that you have 2000 sustained DPS. over 1 minute, that is 120,000 damage. at the most, what i am suggesting would likely cost you ~5000 damage over the course of 1 minute. so now your damage has been reduced to 115,000, which is 1916 DPS. Less than 100 DPS difference, in exchange for allowing you to be fully mobile while using your most important set-up ability.

honestly, i would be fine with not touching the damage numbers and simply make them instant. i suggested the damage changes to maintain overall balance, which i think they would overall.

Quote: Originally Posted by Warshades View Post
I say your wanting to change the mechanics. You want to play like a melee doing dmg on the move but nt required to maintain a 4 m. range. Thats where you dont understand the impact it will have. Let me put it another way. What if snipers could do the same dmg, without having to use cover and all insta dmg. You would see warzones with 8 snipers and 8 gunslingers in every match. What your asking for is Godmode in PvP. The ability to max dmg from max range with minimal ways to defend against it.
And my focus IS on playability..... every change I have suggested would improve the playability of Merc
Except you cannot stay at max range for more than a few seconds. The way maps and objectives are designed, most engagements are forced into relatively confined spaces. Not to mention the number of options different melee specs have to close the gap.

Right now Merc CAN do max damage from max range. That is not a problem. The problem is when melee pressure the Merc, they have no effective way to maintain DPS output and their only real option is to try and run away, which is not a solution to the problem.


it is impossible to maintain separation when you are fully dependent upon casted abilities to be fully effective. do you even play a merc? because it does not sound like you understand the problems merc has fighting against melee opponents......

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.21.2012 , 04:23 PM | #37
Absolutely 100% disagree with reducing Tracer Missile by 15% (why is this reduction more than the Power Shot/Charged bolts reduction?). I'm sorry cash but reducing the damage from these abilities is by far the dumbest thing you've ever suggested and is the LAST thing Commando/Merc needs. I'd rather Arsenal/Gunnery is NEVER viable in PVP then mess with it again. AWFUL AWFUL idea and if you're going to be that casual over 100 DPS lost then you have no place whatsoever even commenting on PVE balance.


If you want instant casts for Power Shots/Charged Bolts make it a high tier skill in the Pyro/Assault tree with the corresponding lower damage if you really feel it's necessary for balance. I'd much rather just have a way to get temporary interrupt immunity.


Your concern is primarily PVP and for that reason you should focus on utility changes. Instant casts are NOT it. That's the price you pay for being a ranged in PVP. Give us roots, give us knockbacks that are effective, give us an escape and an ability to have tactical interrupt immunity in PVP on a semi regular basis, but instant casts is far too far in the other direction. Get a different pet fix dude.

The changes to PVE are way too harsh. Also do you remember the LAST time they nerfed damage by just 10%? The actual difference was way more.

Please BW do not go through with the suggested changes. We can do better.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Warshades's Avatar


Warshades
11.21.2012 , 04:25 PM | #38
Which is why I suggested adding ablities that focus on separation control, rather than godmode.

Look I agree that mercs need help. That goes without saying, but giving them spammable insta cast max range abilities is NOT the way to do it. There are other options and you should explore them first. /cheers
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.21.2012 , 04:30 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Absolutely 100% disagree with reducing Tracer Missile by 15% (why is this reduction more than the Power Shot/Charged bolts reduction?). I'm sorry cash but reducing the damage from these abilities is by far the dumbest thing you've ever suggested and is the LAST thing Commando/Merc needs. I'd rather Arsenal/Gunnery is NEVER viable in PVP then mess with it again. AWFUL AWFUL idea and if you're going to be that casual over 100 DPS lost then you have no place whatsoever even commenting on PVE balance.


If you want instant casts for Power Shots/Charged Bolts make it a high tier skill in the Pyro/Assault tree with the corresponding lower damage if you really feel it's necessary for balance. I'd much rather just have a way to get temporary interrupt immunity.


Your concern is primarily PVP and for that reason you should focus on utility changes. Instant casts are NOT it. That's the price you pay for being a ranged in PVP. Give us roots, give us knockbacks that are effective, give us an escape and an ability to have tactical interrupt immunity in PVP on a semi regular basis, but instant casts is far too far in the other direction. Get a different pet fix dude.

The changes to PVE are way too harsh. Also do you remember the LAST time they nerfed damage by just 10%? The actual difference was way more.

Please BW do not go through with the suggested changes. We can do better.
I will remove the damage reductions if this seems to be such a massive sticking point for you PvE people. it makes no difference to me.

As far as instant cast tracer/power shot would create imbalance in PvP. There is no such thing as "tactical interrupt immunity" when there are more ways to be interrupted that just interrupt skills. The things you suggested would turn us into Snipers, and I did not roll a Merc to become a Sniper with 2 pistols instead of a rifle. Melee opponents have absolutely zero problem getting in range, and staying in range. And it has been like that since the launch of the game. Instant abilities allow Merc to not be immediately shutdown as soon as they are under pressure from melee opponents, which is MASSIVELY important for a DPS class.

and just so you know, when they nerfed damage by 10%, it was only 10%. and the difference was only 10%.

Merc does not need more abilities to create separation control. And that is a bandaid fix at best, as it does not solve the crux of the problem. Which is that Merc is 100% dependent upon casted abilities to be effective, and has no way to resist having those casts interrupted. The vast majority of PvP engagements in this game occur within 10m. This is because of map design and objective placements. Merc needs ways to remain effective at those distances, and casted abilities at that range are a MASSIVE liability

Warshades's Avatar


Warshades
11.21.2012 , 04:45 PM | #40
obviously I cant reason with you, so I'll leave the thread with this....

PTs/Vanguards had something like you wanted, good dmg that could be done from range. They got nerfed all the hell because of it. Now you want what they had x10. It will be a cold day in hell when they let that happen. I might eat those words one day, only tie will tell, but I gaurentee you wont see me playing anything other than a merc if it does happen. You ask for too much.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”