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Mercenary Manifesto


Borondir's Avatar


Borondir
11.23.2012 , 04:00 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Nassik View Post
Fair enough, mercs don't have an assortment of readily available CCs and other classes have gap closers that can bring them within that magical 4 meter melee range. So, if I understand correctly, you think we need a few unbreakable CCs and/or that other classes need their ranged abilities' ranges reduced.

While it's possible that mercs could be given additional CCs, it seems unlikely due to the effort involved. Making them unbreakable would be seen as over-powered by many, I believe, and so I severely doubt that would happen.

I'm pretty sure that the ranges of other classes' ranged abilities would never be altered simply to accommodate mercs. So I think that we can forget that idea.

Is this what you're saying?

I sincerely hope that I've understood you correctly. If not, I apologize.
Yes, i would prefer the idea to remove the range of any gap closers and give us snares which don't break on damage. For example take the hunter in wow. He has options to get away from a melee once he got charged. He jumps back, put a small cd cc on the melee and has a ranged snare which doesn't break on damage. The melees don't charge over the whole shooting range and still they are deadly enough.
Here i shoot once, then the melee is on me and snares me. From the moment on i have no chance to get back out of melee range. It doesn't matter if i am at 30m or 15m, he is instant on me. Kiting is impossible when the gap closers have the same range as the guns.

Warshades's Avatar


Warshades
11.23.2012 , 04:05 PM | #122
Well you still have stun/mezz/kb to regain separation but yeah, that is where the problem lies.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

JakeTetra's Avatar


JakeTetra
11.23.2012 , 06:56 PM | #123
people need to also get out of the frame of mind that they need to be arsenal, pyro is a great spec, while not as powerful as the powertech version we have range, heals and a cleanse, while some of the guilds that freak out about losing a few rating points wont take you if you're actually good you shouldnt have a problem getting into a rated team

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
11.23.2012 , 09:52 PM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by JakeTetra View Post
people need to also get out of the frame of mind that they need to be arsenal, pyro is a great spec, while not as powerful as the powertech version we have range, heals and a cleanse, while some of the guilds that freak out about losing a few rating points wont take you if you're actually good you shouldnt have a problem getting into a rated team
Hah, yeah all those top rated teams are just screaming out for DPS mercs.

Oh wait, my mistake. You meant the crap ones.
Zacharďah - Commando / Chasso - Merc
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2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.23.2012 , 09:55 PM | #125
Instant cast tracer missile/power shot gives increased mobility, which in turn gives increases survivability. I see people continuing to ask for new utility/survivability cooldowns, but that is exactly what instant TM/PS would do.

Your max damage output would not change. What would change is that you would suddenly have the ability to kite effectively while maintaining damage output, which is increased survivability in and of itself. Yes, Merc would be very effective at kiting, but that is the whole point. Melee classes have no lack of gap closers. Whether its stealth, leaps, pulls, roots, slows, or anything else i may have forgotten about, melee have more ways to get in our face than we do to get out of theirs.

Yes, instant TM/PS would give Merc the ability to LoS and do damage. Merc would also still be one of the squishiest classes in the game. I realize people think that Heavy Armor gives better defense, but it doesnt, trust me. Being caught in the open by a Sniper or Sorc, or a melee class getting the jump on you would still likely mean youre going to be fighting for your life. This is pretty much the norm for all classes already. Currently, in any of those situations Merc can do nothing but attempt to run away and hope for back-up. The difference in an instant TM/PS world would be that getting caught in the open against a Merc would now mean you have a fight on your hands.

I understand how this can sound like I am asking to become massively overpowered. Instant Tracer Missile/Power Shot does increase Merc's ability to effectively deal damage significantly. The problem is, this change is necessary. Merc's number one weakness is interrupt vulnerability, and it is the most easily exploited weakness in the game.

Merc is so far below melee DPS classes, snipers, even sorcs as far as combat effectiveness is concerned. In the absolutely ideal circumstances, a Merc can just barely keep pace with the damage output of other DPS classes. We are considered the easiest kill in a WZ because once engaged, we really cannot fight back and have no significant defensive abilities. In order to match those other DPS classes, a Merc needs to play at a much, much higher skill level than other classes.

An important thing to keep in mind is that Merc can never out-reach the gap closers of a melee class. Their range is the same, so if the Merc wants to continue to engage a melee opponents, they are putting themselves at the risk of being forced into melee range again.

Another thing to remember is that this game is not balanced around 1v1 combat. Group play is the name of the game, and in a group combat setting instant TM/PS are not going to imbalance Mercs ability to deal damage. The thing about 1v1 combat is that there is a perpetual "rock > scissors > paper > rock" mechanic. Unfortunately, right now for Mercs its more of a "Merc < All" mechanic. You are never going to strike perfect balance of all classes in 1v1 combat, some of them are always going to have distinct advantages over other classes. Merc has no distinct advantage over any other class right now. With instant TM/PS, Merc would become the rock to several classes scissors, but would still be vulnerable to the right paper.

I am not asking for God-mode or Rambo-mode. I am not asking to be able to beat every other class in a 1v1. I am asking for the tools to compete at the same level as other DPS classes. I firmly believe that the changes I asked for are whats necessary for that to happen, and Instant Cast Tracer Missile / Power Shot is part of that solution.

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
11.23.2012 , 11:19 PM | #126
To open, remember that Cash's suggestions are a minimal Dev effort solution to the woeful merc. All they require is adjustment in current game coding. Furthermore, they are actions that could be implemented in Update 1.6., rather than leaving us forgotten for another six months to a year.

Moving on...

Despite the mobility that bounty hunters are supposed to have, we are, quite clearly, ranged turrets. We're interruptable and extraordinarily easy to kill. Our DPS is not equal to other classes (partly due to our easy interruptabililty).

Obvious counters to these weaknesses would be to grant us some sort of interrupt immunity, increase our defensive capability, and increase our DPS. There's also the issue of escapability that a Dev actually has acknowledged.

The modified Hold the Line ability would grant us interrupt immunity.

Defensive capability could be improved with an improved Energy Shield (reduce all incoming damage by 50% for 30 seconds [two minute cool-down]) and additional CCs. With PvP already being referred to as Stun Wars, though, I doubt that anyone wants to give the merc more CCs.

Simple damage buffs to our high tier abilities would increase our DPS. Let's be honest, mercs need a DPS boost.

Escapability: Cash's modifications to Jet boost (the included speed burst) would grant an avenue of escape. The suggested jetpack ability in the bounty hunter forums would also grant escape ability.

Utility. Cash already stated that mercs are good at area denial. Jet boost does that job well, except against players that have knock back immunity. So why not boost that merc capability? Increase the knock back distance of jet boost and add a root to it. Return the knock back to Rocket Punch. Give mercs an AoE stun that negates all current actions for 4 seconds (that would halt those Marauders that Dejavy got ganked by). Things like that would give the merc area denial utility. It certainly would make them better at guarding nodes.


You may love, like, loathe, revile, or abhor any of the above possibilities. And that's alright. What any or all of these would require is time and effort on the part of the Devs. You certainly wouldn't see any of the above in Update 1.6 to go along with the new war zone. And that is part of Cash's point. He's hoping to get mercs a much-needed improvement to coincide with the next update. Mercs in PvP have been at the bottom of the barrel for months now. More and more Mercs stop queueing for PvP ( I know that I have) and our pitiful state is not going to encourage new Free-to-Players to roll a bounty hunter. Like it or not, the merc needs a fix as soon as possible. Otherwise, less and less players will take up the class.

If anyone wants even the possibility of a merc fix in Update 1.6, it has to be approached in the same way that Cash has done it... we've got to look at modifications to existing merc abilities (not creating or granting new merc abilities).


I still agree with and stand by Cash's suggestions. An instant Tracer Missile/ Power Shot would grant us a degree of interrupt immunity. They also have defensive use (being able to kite [run and gun] is an effective defensive strategy). Instant TM/ PS actually wouldn't increase DPS, but it would enable us to meet our DPS potential. The suggested modification to jet boost would increase our escapability. Cash's suggestions address each of the merc's current weaknesses. They may not be perfect solutions, but no such thing exists. A key to these suggestions is that they are easy and even quick to implement.

There is little to no point in asking for new abilities for the merc. All those wondrous ideas would require a complete overhaul of the mercenary abilities and the Devs simply aren't going to do that. Ever. So instead, look at modifying what we've got because that's all we're ever going to get.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.24.2012 , 12:22 AM | #127
Quote:
I still agree with and stand by Cash's suggestions. An instant Tracer Missile/ Power Shot would grant us a degree of interrupt immunity. They also have defensive use (being able to kite [run and gun] is an effective defensive strategy). Instant TM/ PS actually wouldn't increase DPS, but it would enable us to meet our DPS potential. The suggested modification to jet boost would increase our escapability. Cash's suggestions address each of the merc's current weaknesses. They may not be perfect solutions, but no such thing exists. A key to these suggestions is that they are easy and even quick to implement.

There is little to no point in asking for new abilities for the merc. All those wondrous ideas would require a complete overhaul of the mercenary abilities and the Devs simply aren't going to do that. Ever. So instead, look at modifying what we've got because that's all we're ever going to get.
Easy yes. And hey in the hopes of being OP I can even support those changes.


But we WOULD be OP with instant casts. We would, and then we'd get nerfed. Almost certainly by another damage reduction to the ability. We'd see a resurgence of the "Grav Round" spammers and we're better than that.

Given what the devs have said (little as that is) they're already thinking in the direction of adding another ability, some sort of escape.

You're right it'd be the easy thing, but it'd be the wrong thing. Of all the reasons to do things, dev laziness is the last we should go with.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

dejavy's Avatar


dejavy
11.24.2012 , 12:27 AM | #128
I simply don't understand what kind of kite you mean even if they give us smth instant? Being Assault i don't suffer because of DPS lack BUT my survivability. I can't kite juggernauts and ssins at all. Even if i kite marauder, he kills anyway and it's not because i can't cast something moving, it's my general squishiness. I'd be able to kite if my bubble makes me immune but again, it doesn't help much really. I got 5.2k crit being in my bubble kiting a marauder. It's all about general Smash nerf or rangers defense buff, that's it. Insta casts wouldn't help coz you die in SECONDS. U just can't overDPS him, we need survivability and CC AND theeeen maaybe instant casts.

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
11.24.2012 , 12:34 AM | #129
I agree that mercenary could use a little love but the stuff listed in this post doesn't seem like the right direction to me. Arsenal mercs are unique we are the turrets. We aren't meant to be mobile so I disagree with making our TM/PS instant. I do however think we need increased survivability...give us a stronger energy shield or make our CDs on knockbacks quicker nothing really major. The stuff the OP posted makes it sound like he wants arsenal mercs to be frost mages. Instant casting isn't always the answer.
As for the pve side of things I wish they would make dual wielding actually benefit mercs. Right now its just sort of meh but we do not receive the full benefit of an offhand weapon. Everytime I look through my parses at the end of the day I notice a high amount of misses all coming from my offhand. Ive seen anywhere from 18%-28% misses on unloads and rapid shots on my logs. What is the flare/point to having an offhand if its just going to miss a ton? Simple fix = talent that raises OH to 100% perhaps this will make up that 5% difference between mercs and marauders in pve.

Aerro's Avatar


Aerro
11.24.2012 , 02:20 AM | #130
You do realize that either 1 point in CR and one point in System Calibrations is necessary right? If you don't go that route and feel more comfortable with CR maxed out- you do that.

If you are not doing that- then you are wrong.

Also, you grab CR not for the time off of Tracer Missile... you grab it for the time off of Unload. Unload becomes a 2.8s channel which adds up over time and adds to your APM. High APM = more attacks = more DPS.

I currently Parse 1900-2100 on NiM Firebrand and Stormcaller (16). That is a mobile fight, but if you manage your abilities EFFICIENTLY you won't have to deal with a major DPS loss while moving in which you can ramp it back up when you are stationary.

Again I will explain why instant Tracers for a 15% damage reduction is terrible.

My Tracers currently crit for 3800. With the damage reduction, it will do 550-600 less per tracer. That is a MAJOR loss.
Not only that, but Tracer will now be only used on the GCD, which for instants is 1.5 seconds. Yes, its only +.1s to your cast but that is still .1s, and for someone min/maxing that is quite a bit. All of these losses for what? To be able to use 1-2 tracers while moving?

Firebrand and Stormcaller = If you are efficient, you will use the knockback to get to your shields. Yes you can do this on Nightmare. That is not even a full GCD to use a Tracer, and also the bosses take like 90% less damage. Running back to the tanks would be the only time you would need that, but with Dart, RS and HSM... (3 GCDs) you get to the tank in enough time for instant Tracers to be obsolete.

Toth and Zorn = Instant Tracers are literally unnecessary in this fight. If you're moving around to the point of needing it- you should rethink your class.

Colonel Vorgath = Instant Tracers definitely not needed.

Kephess = Instant Tracers not needed. When running between droids during the later phases, Dart makes up for it since one GCD will get you to the other side assuming your Marauders take advantage of Predation (which they should be for maximizing DPS output).


So that is current content... where Instant Tracers are not needed. The only reason people want it is for PvP, which will nerf PvE.



Reposting again since clearly people argue over unnecessary things. This post is a blatant reminder that even Bioware would find these changes asinine.
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One of the leading Mercenaries in a World Progression Guild.