Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Mercenary Manifesto


Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
11.23.2012 , 02:21 AM | #111
Too much turkey, Cash. Throw a cast time on HM and you open it up to interrupts. Which I thought you were trying to reduce.

Heatseeker Missiles depends on the stacks of Heat Signature from Tracer. If Heatseeker gets interrupted, your Tracers were robbed of their utility.

We don't have many instant cast abilities in the first place. I don't recommend taking one of them away.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
11.23.2012 , 03:22 AM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Nassik View Post
Heat prevents you from strafecasting indefinitely. And a merc would be foolish to ignore stronger, cast (interruptable) abilities in their rotation.

Any Force user that closes the gap between them and the merc is going to do their customary damage. These suggestions increase the effectiveness of jet boost but the ability's cool-down prevents it from being used in an unending loop. None of these suggestions stop blaster bolts, either. We could still be hit.
ITP interweaving rapid shots to maintain heat management doesn't exist.


Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Lists a bunch of situational abilities that are channeled but would never need to be used ever to keep a melee away and kite him to death with 3 spammables as a response to the fact that his changes make his class unkillable by everything except a carnage marauder
You want to tell me why you'd use flamethrower or DFA to kill a guy who's trying to close range to 4 meters? Which he can't even do in theory because your knockback roots him and you've got snares, movement buffs and the ability to maintain about 80% of your damage without ever letting him get to return fire range.

Deception assassins are also less than great, so how about this: all of their attacks now go to 30 meters. That's about how balanced your changes are. And no, I don't play an assassin.

Your post is the epitome of asking for an i-win button to bind to your taskbar.

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
11.23.2012 , 04:28 AM | #113
True, a merc could intersperse Rapid Shots with Tracer Missile to manage heat. That would be a ton of Rapid Shots, though. And considering the relatively low damage of both abilities, you'd be running and gunning for some time.

If these changes were implemented, what tools would mercs have to maintain distance...
Jet Boost (knockback and speed boost)
Rocket Punch (knockback and root)
Missile Blast (slows enemy)

Nothing above prevents the merc from being CCed. There are no immunities for the merc either.

There's also the simple fact that 1 vs. 1 fights aren't the norm in a war zone. In that situation, left alone to hunt, a merc could do the whole "run and gun" thing. But in an active war zone with 14-16 players there's no way that situation could ever play out. No enemy team would leave a merc to stalk one of their own, especially not with an instant cast Tracer Missile and Power Shot.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

Borondir's Avatar


Borondir
11.23.2012 , 06:11 AM | #114
The main problem i see are the missing spamable snares from the merc and that jumps, pull etc. have 30m range. I don't know a game where such skills have the max. range. I could live with it when jumps pulls etc. would have 15-20m max. range and the merc can snare a melee which isn't breaking on damage. The merc wouldn't be so easy to reach and kiting would be possible, though you wouldn't do much damage when you kite but thats ok.

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
11.23.2012 , 06:46 AM | #115
Fair enough, mercs don't have an assortment of readily available CCs and other classes have gap closers that can bring them within that magical 4 meter melee range. So, if I understand correctly, you think we need a few unbreakable CCs and/or that other classes need their ranged abilities' ranges reduced.

While it's possible that mercs could be given additional CCs, it seems unlikely due to the effort involved. Making them unbreakable would be seen as over-powered by many, I believe, and so I severely doubt that would happen.

I'm pretty sure that the ranges of other classes' ranged abilities would never be altered simply to accommodate mercs. So I think that we can forget that idea.

Is this what you're saying?

I sincerely hope that I've understood you correctly. If not, I apologize.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

dejavy's Avatar


dejavy
11.23.2012 , 09:47 AM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
I think that giving Merc the tools to maintain its DPS output while under pressure, overall our current utility would be much better. Merc is very good at area denial, Arsenal has arguably the best knockback in the game, ability to off heal (ive saved my healer many, many times by buying them a few extra seconds), my proposed Missile Blast slow would give us a dependable slow, and stealth scan (which is a MASSIVELY underrated ability).

and ive already attracted, as you say, "a flood of whiners" from the things ive asked for lol.
Have just come back from WZ.... You know, Commando needs not only dps and telling the truth instant TM won't help the class anyhow when Marauders/Assasins kill you during 10 seconds no matter what you're using. I know there are bad marauders and good but just now i met one who simply anihillated each and every member of the team with few strikes. I wouldn't be surprised if the mates were BM or Recruit, no , they were all WH gear / augs. So, even if they give us insta casts to our TM or whatever, it won't change a thing. RWZ and WZ are filled with Maras,ssins and juggersnauts these days. One monkey with a lightsaber is killing me fast, 2 monkies do it like in 5 secs or so. I've caught 5 on me today and you know what it was? - ONE FUC***** strike with 5.5k each! Game over. It's not whine about i can't survive against 5..., actually commando can't survive even against just one good marauder.

So, just don't know what to suggest... def skills or instant casts, to my mind nothing will help the class while PTs, Maras and Ssins remain in their present state.
Probably while it happens with the balance, there's just no sense to play NOT glowingstick classes. What's the fuc**ing point to do this if there's NO chance to compete no matter how you're geared or skilled? I don't like melee classes and my vanguard is now a 10m crab. Hate this change. Something large must happen to change the situation. Glowstickzergfest is everywhere. It's just poor design and stupid vision of the devs. I'm out, really gave too much time to this game.

SanjayaP's Avatar


SanjayaP
11.23.2012 , 10:10 AM | #117
Not sure if this has been mentioned before but could we take an idea of wow's hunter class and implement it for mercs/commandos -
Looking at the combat cylinder/cell as the same as the wow hunters aspects, make one based off aspect of the fox i dont know call it Ardrenaline injector or something, make it a 15% dmg reduction on all abilities but remove the need to stand still for any ability with a cast time/channel.
So you kite a chap till they use all their leaps and charges, while still doing moderate dmg, get some distance and switch to the Arp cell and do full dmg.
This wont affect pve as the dmg reduction will only apply while using that cylinder so no need to worry about being shafted cause of that.

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
11.23.2012 , 02:04 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by Nassik View Post
True, a merc could intersperse Rapid Shots with Tracer Missile to manage heat. That would be a ton of Rapid Shots, though.
No, it wouldn't. We know it wouldn't because TM has the same heat cost as Flame Burst/Ion Pulse and Pyro PTs don't run out of energy spamming it with an occasional hammer shots/rapid shots. What you are asking is to turn Tracer missile into Flame Burst, but leave it as a 30m ability. No 30 class has, or can have anything like this (an instant, indefinite spammable with no cooldown) without making it unkillable by every melee other than a carnage marauder. And without cast times to disrupt the attacks + heavy armor + the option of self heals and limited cleanses, no ranged can kill one either.


Quote:
If these changes were implemented, what tools would mercs have to maintain distance...
Jet Boost (knockback and speed boost)
Rocket Punch (knockback and root)
Missile Blast (slows enemy)

Nothing above prevents the merc from being CCed. There are no immunities for the merc either.
I understand that arsenal mercs don't know anything about kiting because they haven't ever had the tools to do it, but cc isn't useful to a melee pursuer because if they're close enough to use a CC, they want to be causing damage. And for Ranged, apart from 1 sorc spec (whose CC whitebars the target, but can be used as part of an execute rotation if and only if a proc isn't up, the target has no dots on it and a long cooldown offensive ability is available), CC can't be used offensively either.

The immunity they have is that range cannot be closed and maintained. under these changes The merc can spam a medium damage ability and the melee can't do anything. Understand, if a sorceror's chain shock lost its cooldown or lightning strike lost its cast time, or if a pyro PT's flame burst went to 30m, like TM does, nothing except a carnage marauder would be able to kill any of these classes under any circumstances. This is what the OP is asking for merc to get. It's complete overkill.


Quote:
There's also the simple fact that 1 vs. 1 fights aren't the norm in a war zone. In that situation, left alone to hunt, a merc could do the whole "run and gun" thing. But in an active war zone with 14-16 players there's no way that situation could ever play out. No enemy team would leave a merc to stalk one of their own, especially not with an instant cast Tracer Missile and Power Shot.
Left alone, any ranged will decimate the enemy's lines right now. What you're asking is that it be impossible to stop one spec of one class (and a pve spec at that) from being countered by any 1 enemy. This game's got a lot of balance problems, but the OP's suggestions exceed any problems that currently exist in this game.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.23.2012 , 02:40 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
absolutely feel free to rewrite it in Commando terms, but if you dont mind when you post it to just say that you edited it for those terms, and link to this thread so folks can see the original


now, this "Hold the Line" argument. first of all, its a spec'd into ability for Powertech/Vanguard's that is high up in the Advanced Prototype tree. asking for it already seems kinda silly, as it is clearly a Powertech/Vanguard mechanic. You dont see Powertech's asking for Heatseeker Missiles.

now, 8s of "immunity" would let us run through almost one main rotation as Arsenal. 3x TM -> HM -> RS -> Unload takes 9 seconds to complete. Nothing is stopping your target from CC'ing you during that tho. Hold the line also does not provide interrupt immunity, so it really does not help with the main issue.

not to mention, adding Hold the Line to Arsenal leaves Pyrotech up a creek still. Which means that Pyro needs its own tool to give it the same functionality, as Pyrotech is just as dependent on casting. you cant add Hold the Line to Merc in general, as its effect on Combat Medic would be quite significant.

the work involved with adding Hold the Line, and a similar Pyrotech ability, is significantly greater than the changes i suggested. not to mention, Hold the Line does not address the number of issue Merc has, which is interrupt vulnerability.

furthermore, i think it would be incredibly unfair to Mercs to force us to re-tool our specs in order to be fully effective. We've been treated as the second rate citizens of PvP for a long time, changes could and should be made to make all necessary adjustments within the current framework of the class.

the changes i suggested are the simplest ways to tackle the toughest problems that Merc currently has.
Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. I call it hold the line because I need to call it something but I've almost always said "a hold the line type ability that gives immunity to leaps and interrupts" It would have different functionality for us because we NEED it to have different functionality. I've said it so long and so often that the only reason you can be sticking with this stance is because you're married to the idea of instant casts. Also Grav Round x3 and Unload takes 7.5 seconds. High Impact Bolt and Demo Round are both instant casts. You would need to learn to use it properly.

For Pyro I'd actually be more amenable to a reduced damage instant cast Charged Bolts talent high in the pyro tree.

ANY change is going to force us to rethink how we play the class. If you aren't willing to change to be effective then you don't deserve PVP effectiveness.

Quote:
We agree that we need to be able to set up under fire. Both of our solutions do that... one defensively and one offensively. I don't know that an instant Tracer would allow us to dish out massive amounts of damage while kiting, though. Your standard merc is going to fire three Tracer Missiles (2010 damage) in order to set up. After that, he/she is going to resort to their cast abilities. Of course, those can be interrupted ad infinitum. And we're standing still to fire those off.

The proposed increased pushback and speed boost from jet boost would put a jedi or sith back on their heels and allow us to back off and launch into a rotation, no doubt. But it also would have a 25-28 second cool down. During that time a jedi or sith can press the attack while we burn through our rotation or they can back off. After all, running is a perfectly viable option. Mercs certainly do it a lot. This scenario, though, portrays a 1 vs. 1 fight. This isn't the norm in a war zone.

Being able to dish out damage while being untouchable (for however short a time) would be fantastic for us. But what do you do when the ability goes on cool down and your standing there defenseless? You would be in exactly the same position that we are now... free kills. All opponents would have to do in order to counter us would be to wait out the Hold the Line ability. After that, jump in and tear us to pieces. We don't need an ability that lets us get off one rotation. That's as ineffective as a five-charge Tech Override would be. And it has the potential to be viewed just as over-powered.
The second it gets viewed as overpowered we'll stop being considered free kills. If they leap to us knowing they have to sit through a full rotation before they can shut us down they WILL think twice about jumping us because a full Rotation from a geared commando allowed to free cast will put anyone in the dirt. The rest of the time we sit at the edge of the furball and rain death just like we should be doing now.


Quote:
thankfully this game is not balanced around 1v1 encounters..............

We'd never die to a sniper we could LoS? Juggs not taking unstoppable? "IF opponents CAN BE BOTHERED to use roots/slows"? i hate to sound like a bigot again ( ), but have you PvP'd lately???
The big utility root for carnage mara is not a 30m range. Knock them back, run out of it run and gun and they sit there impotent waiting for Force Charge to come off cool down. Meanwhile we can get 5 Charged Barrel Stacks and 5 Vortices on them which means that after taking 4-9k dmg from three tracers they're going to eat an easy 9k HiB and DR, and that's gonna leave them not happy.

Being able to do that once every 2 minutes is one thing. Being able to do that ALL THE TIME is a different kettle of fish.

Quote:
Merc CAN cleanse Sniper root/slow, but CANNOT cure Jugg root/slow (cant cleanse Force effects). Luckily for Sniper, theyve got plenty of tools already. and you know what? The sniper can LoS the Merc just the same, plus Sniper has some great tools (30m mez, handful of slows they can spec into, etc). Sniper is 100% fine, and probably one of the best balanced classes in the game. Jugg has a ton of utility, not to mention multiple leaps in Rage spec (most common by far). and show me a Warrior/Knight that always leads with leap, and ill show you someone with mediocre skill at best.
Pretty sure the root from leap is physical, as is the specced one in Deadly Throw/Crippling Throw that Maras/Sents get.

Also they can't LoS you if you can just pop out from behind a pillar and use an instant and then get right back. That's the point. They have to cast. You're right. Snipers and Juggs ARE very well balanced. Alot of that has to do with having a good chunk of utility and the ability to cast without being interrupted. Not cast instantly. Right now Commando isn't. After an instant TM change it still wouldn't be, things would just go too far in the other direction. Btw the reason Juggs aren't taking unstoppable is because they're all smash spec now. Haven't you noticed the lack of glowing orange shields lately?

Also it doesn't matter if they lead with the leap. They'll never catch you without it because now you can keep a seperation of 20+ meters without them being able to do a damn thing about it. That second leap of theirs only has a range of 10m and it requires focus.

Quote:
Tech Override with 12s would, in actuality, be massively OP. It is a Merc wide ability. You want to give Combat Medic 12s of instant casts? You claimed that Supercharged Gas was OP (which its not btw, and it got a massive un-needed nerf in 1.2), this would be nuts. 8 straight Rapid Scans on instant would allow Combat Medic Mercs to heal for 30-40k over those 12 seconds. Timed properly with Vent Heat, and you could do that easily.
I didn't say it was OP. I said they already have the same functionality right now, and I don't see anyone claiming nerf on them yet. Funny how you think 8 straight Rapid Scans is OP, but infinite Grav Rounds isn't.

Quote:
You wont be able to run-n-gun with instant-cast Tracer Missile. If you do, youll be out of heat in about 15 seconds, in which case youll have your thumb up your butt while you spam Rapid Shots and wait for either your heat to clear, or to get out of combat to use your regen ability. Sure you will probably see people try to do it, but they will have no more success than the people who try to stand and do nothing but spam Tracer Missiles now.
If you haven't learned to stand still and free cast without running out of ammo yet, then I don't know what to tell you. You know we still get recharge cells right? People WILL do it, and they can get quite effective at it if they learn to do a proper rotation on the run that doesn't use Full Auto. If they get left alone because melee get annoyed chasing the guy smacking them around like that you can also use that. If you can do it free casting, you can do it running and gunning. You seem to imagine ALL they'll cast is Grav Round, but they also have two High Damage instants and hammer shot. Trust me, they'll be able to run and rain death without ever needing to stop.

Quote:
Instant cast Tracer Missile/Power Shot allows Merc DPS to compete, without the unintended consequences of buffing a Merc-wide ability. This would actually allow Mercs best defense to be a good offense. Which is exacty why I did not suggest new/better defensive/utility abilities.
I'm sorry that BW lied to you when they said the best defense is a good offense. It was a lie about your class. Get over it. Your change would make us OP and yet still give us no decent team utility. You've said yourself our damage is fine. My changes give us various tools to get that damage out without making us able to kite and kill from 30m with impunity. The second you argue against better defensive/utility abilities because of some misguided since of class aesthetics you're not doing what's best for PVP as a whole.

Quote:
Heat prevents you from strafecasting indefinitely. And a merc would be foolish to ignore stronger, cast (interruptable) abilities in their rotation.
If you do it right it doesn't have to. And as soon as you get left alone you can go back to casting. Soon as you get leapt back to again, you knock back and run and gun again with little DPS lost.

Quote:
yes because Unload, Death From Above, Fusion Missile, Sweeping Blasters, Rapid Scan, Healing Scan, Concussion Missile, and Flamethrower are all unable to be interrupted and can be channeled/cast while moving
If you're casting those while getting attacked by a mara in your face you're doing it wrong. This really would return us to the old days where mercs would run around in a warzone doing nothing but casting TM. That was stupid, but that's where we'd be. Except now we'd be strafing and maintaining LOS at the same time. That's my problem with it.

Quote:
i dont want ALL instant abilties. i want to be able to remain effective when i become under pressure, and instant cast tracer missile/power shot is the only real way to reliable do that without unintentionally un-balancing other aspects of the Merc trees.
It really isn't Your insistence that it is will keep them from taking your good ideas seriously. I'm not sold on the change to Tech Override. I was thinking it'd be nice to have a cooldown that isn't dumb, but sure we don't need it. That doesn't mean instant cast or nothing.
Quote:
and the reason that I suggested more changes to Arsenal is because it is in need of more help than Pyrotech is. All of these changes would have no negative effects on PvE
We've discussed this before, but you're not really in a position to determine what would affect PVE. I don't like the loss of alacrity talents on TM even if the effect is minor.

Quote:
if someone wants to run around the map using nothing but Tracer Missile, Heatseeker Missiles, and Rail Shot, theyre going to have very limited success. yeah they will spit out damage like a son of a gun while they still have heat, but they wont have heat for very long.
Cause no one has ever been successful in a warzone just casting Grav Round?

Listen no one agrees more than me that we need a way to get damage out under pressure. Instant casts aren't the answer. Even casting while moving wouldn't be much better if I'm honest because it'd have a lot of the same issues. It would be awesome, but it would be OP. Everyone's already said it a million times. We need more utility. Yes I keep harping on a Hold the Line ability, but I think that the idea can be adjusted to make it feasible. If you don't think so lets find another idea.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Warshades's Avatar


Warshades
11.23.2012 , 03:56 PM | #120
Im so addicted to this thread. I have certainly gotten my entertainment value from it the last couple days.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”