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Mercenary Manifesto


ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.22.2012 , 10:05 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by Nassik View Post
A modified Hold the Line would help the merc. Doesn't it run counter to the idea of the class, though?

Hold the Line makes sense for a trooper. It's a defensive ability. A bounty hunter, though, is a hunter and aggressor. We're supposed to press the attack or we don't get paid. Admittedly, that's more of a role-playing perspective but it seems valid in the context of the game.
Well I'm a commando =P And they made it a powertech ability so it can't run counter to the idea of the BH class itself, and even if it does I'm not a dedicated enough RPer to really give a damn. I don't care what you CALL the damn thing. Call it whatever you want, what we NEED is the ability to get off our setup underfire, and we need that without making us completely broken by being able to kite while doing too much damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kalifus View Post
I know that this hold the line is your baby I've seen you post it all over, but this suggestion will really do nothing in terms of making this spec viable in pvp. With in a week of putting this in, mercs and commandos from all over would still say this class is broken in pvp. Merc was dubbed as being the best defense is a good offense, and right now we have one of the worst offenses. We need a way to sustain our damage and a hold the line ability will not do it because they will just stun or mezz us during those 8 sec thus negating any positive effect it could possibly give us. The instant would give us a chance to get off our rotation and the heat build up would keep us from being OP.

You say it wouldn't do alot but I dunno if you really believe it. It would take getting used to to use, but I think you'd be amazed what 8 seconds of interrupt/leap immunity every 30 seconds could do for us. 3 tracers and an Unload all without being interruptable? Let me have it and watch me. As for stuns/mezzes we could add that kind of immunity too. Would give us some crazy team utility but it might be going a tad too far. On the other hand Entrench is 20 seconds and Marksman Spec snipers can spec it down to 45 second cooldown, so I dunno about that. I did mention some other basic ranged class utility the class would need as well, but I think even this simple addition would do wonders. People aren't completely negating snipers I can tell you that.

On the other hand, if you don't think being able to run and gun with Tracer wouldn't make us OP then I respond you're either being disingenuous or you haven't thought it through. So many crazy applications. We'd never die to a sniper we could LoS ever again. Run out, fire TM, run back behind your cover. If they displace you've already won. Say good bye to knights being much of a problem ever again. They leap to you, you knock them back (no Juggs taking unstoppable these days) and spam our entire rotation sans unload/full auto while they are powerless to do crap. We can cleanse the snares and roots they bother with if they even CAN bother with them. It's too good. Making Tech Override grant 12 seconds of instant casts is something that I think is doable though. Would make it a true offensive cooldown.

Either way in a PVP environment you aren't engaging for 6 minutes straight. Ammo issues only crop up when your team is doing REALLY well.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.22.2012 , 10:38 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Anysao View Post
I just started a mercenary, and I'm still not 100% sure what spec I should use, for most all-around utility.

I agree with you, but again, I'm new to Mercs, I'm not sure how this will affect other players, but by the sound of it, it all sounds reasonable.

So /signed.

And as a quick note: I find it that addressing strictly to Mercs doesn't seem right. Would you be offended if I wrote your summary again, and put it in commando terminology, and you can copy+paste it into your original post?
absolutely feel free to rewrite it in Commando terms, but if you dont mind when you post it to just say that you edited it for those terms, and link to this thread so folks can see the original


now, this "Hold the Line" argument. first of all, its a spec'd into ability for Powertech/Vanguard's that is high up in the Advanced Prototype tree. asking for it already seems kinda silly, as it is clearly a Powertech/Vanguard mechanic. You dont see Powertech's asking for Heatseeker Missiles.

now, 8s of "immunity" would let us run through almost one main rotation as Arsenal. 3x TM -> HM -> RS -> Unload takes 9 seconds to complete. Nothing is stopping your target from CC'ing you during that tho. Hold the line also does not provide interrupt immunity, so it really does not help with the main issue.

not to mention, adding Hold the Line to Arsenal leaves Pyrotech up a creek still. Which means that Pyro needs its own tool to give it the same functionality, as Pyrotech is just as dependent on casting. you cant add Hold the Line to Merc in general, as its effect on Combat Medic would be quite significant.

the work involved with adding Hold the Line, and a similar Pyrotech ability, is significantly greater than the changes i suggested. not to mention, Hold the Line does not address the number of issue Merc has, which is interrupt vulnerability.

furthermore, i think it would be incredibly unfair to Mercs to force us to re-tool our specs in order to be fully effective. We've been treated as the second rate citizens of PvP for a long time, changes could and should be made to make all necessary adjustments within the current framework of the class.

the changes i suggested are the simplest ways to tackle the toughest problems that Merc currently has.
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
11.22.2012 , 11:04 PM | #93
A preface: I appreciate your thoughts and opinions, Archangel. Thank you.
I assure you that I'm not debating this simply to keep it going. This is a healthy discussion with differing opinions and I respect that.


Fair enough, the name of Hold the Line doesn't matter. Its name aside, it remains a defensive ability used to protect offensive capability. As a DPS class (at least Arsenal spec), though, Shouldn't our focus be on damage output? Kill them before they kill us. The best defense is a good offense. Etc., etc.

We agree that we need to be able to set up under fire. Both of our solutions do that... one defensively and one offensively. I don't know that an instant Tracer would allow us to dish out massive amounts of damage while kiting, though. Your standard merc is going to fire three Tracer Missiles (2010 damage) in order to set up. After that, he/she is going to resort to their cast abilities. Of course, those can be interrupted ad infinitum. And we're standing still to fire those off.

The proposed increased pushback and speed boost from jet boost would put a jedi or sith back on their heels and allow us to back off and launch into a rotation, no doubt. But it also would have a 25-28 second cool down. During that time a jedi or sith can press the attack while we burn through our rotation or they can back off. After all, running is a perfectly viable option. Mercs certainly do it a lot. This scenario, though, portrays a 1 vs. 1 fight. This isn't the norm in a war zone.

Being able to dish out damage while being untouchable (for however short a time) would be fantastic for us. But what do you do when the ability goes on cool down and your standing there defenseless? You would be in exactly the same position that we are now... free kills. All opponents would have to do in order to counter us would be to wait out the Hold the Line ability. After that, jump in and tear us to pieces. We don't need an ability that lets us get off one rotation. That's as ineffective as a five-charge Tech Override would be. And it has the potential to be viewed just as over-powered.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.22.2012 , 11:12 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
On the other hand, if you don't think being able to run and gun with Tracer wouldn't make us OP then I respond you're either being disingenuous or you haven't thought it through. So many crazy applications. We'd never die to a sniper we could LoS ever again. Run out, fire TM, run back behind your cover. If they displace you've already won. Say good bye to knights being much of a problem ever again. They leap to you, you knock them back (no Juggs taking unstoppable these days) and spam our entire rotation sans unload/full auto while they are powerless to do crap. We can cleanse the snares and roots they bother with if they even CAN bother with them. It's too good. Making Tech Override grant 12 seconds of instant casts is something that I think is doable though. Would make it a true offensive cooldown.
i dont think so.

thankfully this game is not balanced around 1v1 encounters..............

We'd never die to a sniper we could LoS? Juggs not taking unstoppable? "IF opponents CAN BE BOTHERED to use roots/slows"? i hate to sound like a bigot again ( ), but have you PvP'd lately???

Merc CAN cleanse Sniper root/slow, but CANNOT cure Jugg root/slow (cant cleanse Force effects). Luckily for Sniper, theyve got plenty of tools already. and you know what? The sniper can LoS the Merc just the same, plus Sniper has some great tools (30m mez, handful of slows they can spec into, etc). Sniper is 100% fine, and probably one of the best balanced classes in the game. Jugg has a ton of utility, not to mention multiple leaps in Rage spec (most common by far). and show me a Warrior/Knight that always leads with leap, and ill show you someone with mediocre skill at best.

Tech Override with 12s would, in actuality, be massively OP. It is a Merc wide ability. You want to give Combat Medic 12s of instant casts? You claimed that Supercharged Gas was OP (which its not btw, and it got a massive un-needed nerf in 1.2), this would be nuts. 8 straight Rapid Scans on instant would allow Combat Medic Mercs to heal for 30-40k over those 12 seconds. Timed properly with Vent Heat, and you could do that easily.

You wont be able to run-n-gun with instant-cast Tracer Missile. If you do, youll be out of heat in about 15 seconds, in which case youll have your thumb up your butt while you spam Rapid Shots and wait for either your heat to clear, or to get out of combat to use your regen ability. Sure you will probably see people try to do it, but they will have no more success than the people who try to stand and do nothing but spam Tracer Missiles now.

Instant cast Tracer Missile/Power Shot allows Merc DPS to compete, without the unintended consequences of buffing a Merc-wide ability. This would actually allow Mercs best defense to be a good offense. Which is exacty why I did not suggest new/better defensive/utility abilities.
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
11.22.2012 , 11:18 PM | #95
Quote:
-- Missile Blast now slows the enemy by 30% for 6s (Mercenary only change, will not affect Powertech's Missile Blast)


Arsenal Tree:
- change Muzzle Fluting, a tier 2 box, from .5s cast reduction to 2s cast reduction of Tracer Missile and Power Shot. this will make them instant abilities
- power barrier -> change this back to 2% damage reduction per stack
- change Afterbuners, a tier 3 box, to the following: Rocket Punch has a [50 / 100]% chance to KNOCKBACK AND IMMOBILIZE the target for 4 seconds. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. In addition, Jet Boost's knockback effect is stronger and pushes enemies [2 / 4] meters further away.
This is as far as I got before I stopped reading.

You've basically made arsenal spec unkillable by anything but a carnage marauder with these changes. You can strafecast indefinitely without any melee ever closing a gap and no ranged can disrupt you.

JakeTetra's Avatar


JakeTetra
11.22.2012 , 11:27 PM | #96
a lot of you're ideas are stupid, instant TM is a horrible idea, we are not meant to be able to do the majority of our damage moving while in arsenal spec, most of this thread is also based around arsenal while your sig says you are a pyro merc... so what are you complaining about, pyro is a great spec, sure we will be out dps'd by powertechs and maras, but we have a cleanse for roots/slows (all be it not all of them) we can LOS and heal our selves a bit and can do all of our rotation bar unload while moving) if you want to give mercs a bit more changing how abilities work is not the way to go about it, and only giving big changes to arsenal is not the way to do it, i PVE and PvP but i do it with 2 different specs because thats whats viable at the moment, if you want to PvP go pyro or combat medic or arsenal if you dont mind its weaknesses, but back on topic as to what can be done

IMO they need to give arsenal the rocket punch knock back, as a seperate ability give mercs a root (like leg shot, pyro needs that too) or a slow both universal to the merc AC, maybe a slight buff to power shot damage, although i rarely use it because of heat management and trying to stay mobile, but if it had a bit more of a punch to it, powertech and merc pyro wouldnt be that far off, and the only other thing would be to make the merc snare from CGC a bit more reliable, while they add an extra ability some of them, over all they brings us more in line with other ranged classes and they dont change the class dramatically like the OP's suggestions

if you want all instant abilities roll a powertech

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
11.22.2012 , 11:28 PM | #97
Heat prevents you from strafecasting indefinitely. And a merc would be foolish to ignore stronger, cast (interruptable) abilities in their rotation.

Any Force user that closes the gap between them and the merc is going to do their customary damage. These suggestions increase the effectiveness of jet boost but the ability's cool-down prevents it from being used in an unending loop. None of these suggestions stop blaster bolts, either. We could still be hit.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.22.2012 , 11:28 PM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
This is as far as I got before I stopped reading.

You've basically made arsenal spec unkillable by anything but a carnage marauder with these changes. You can strafecast indefinitely without any melee ever closing a gap and no ranged can disrupt you.
yes because Unload, Death From Above, Fusion Missile, Sweeping Blasters, Rapid Scan, Healing Scan, Concussion Missile, and Flamethrower are all unable to be interrupted and can be channeled/cast while moving

Missile Blast is a 25 heat ability. if you play Pyrotech, youll know that a 30% slow is about as helpful as a Nerf Gun, but it is better than no slow. You try to spam that excessively, and you are either going to cut your damage output drastically by focusing only on slowing people, or youre going to be out of heat uber fast if you try to keep up your rotation. This would be a highly situational ability because of its Heat cost.

the Jet Boost change i proposed wouldnt break roots or slows. so if you get rooted, hit Jet Boost, youre 4s 30% speed boost just got wasted. and the classes that need to be in melee range have sufficient gap closers to get back in range quickly.

and how long would you define indefinitely? because if you just spam abilities non-stop, even with Vent Heat you will run out of heat in ~15-20s.
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

LeonHawkeye's Avatar


LeonHawkeye
11.22.2012 , 11:36 PM | #99
Instant Tracer/Grav would be beast. The competent and experienced Mandos/Mercs will be monsters with this but the average one will put out mediocre to decent damage before they're quickly heat capped. It'd be nice but I'm not so sure it would fix our dysfunctional state in Ranked play, it still would offer no reason to bring us. At our best, we do decent DPS, not great or amazing, and this is if we're completely left alone. Making Tracer/Grav instant would emulate this, still leaving us in an awkward state for Ranked. Therefore as much as I would love instant Tracer/Grav, I don't believe it is the answer, we still would need more buffs and or tools to be competitive/effective and desired for ranked play.

Asking for the instant and more utility would probably bring a flood of whiners calling OP but to be honest that's what it takes to make this poorly designed class viable.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.22.2012 , 11:38 PM | #100
Quote: Originally Posted by JakeTetra View Post
a lot of you're ideas are stupid, instant TM is a horrible idea, we are not meant to be able to do the majority of our damage moving while in arsenal spec, most of this thread is also based around arsenal while your sig says you are a pyro merc... so what are you complaining about, pyro is a great spec, sure we will be out dps'd by powertechs and maras, but we have a cleanse for roots/slows (all be it not all of them) we can LOS and heal our selves a bit and can do all of our rotation bar unload while moving) if you want to give mercs a bit more changing how abilities work is not the way to go about it, and only giving big changes to arsenal is not the way to do it, i PVE and PvP but i do it with 2 different specs because thats whats viable at the moment, if you want to PvP go pyro or combat medic or arsenal if you dont mind its weaknesses, but back on topic as to what can be done

IMO they need to give arsenal the rocket punch knock back, as a seperate ability give mercs a root (like leg shot, pyro needs that too) or a slow both universal to the merc AC, maybe a slight buff to power shot damage, although i rarely use it because of heat management and trying to stay mobile, but if it had a bit more of a punch to it, powertech and merc pyro wouldnt be that far off, and the only other thing would be to make the merc snare from CGC a bit more reliable, while they add an extra ability some of them that brings us more in line with other ranged classes and doesn't change the class like the OP's suggestions

if he wants all instant abilities roll a powertech
Im stupid, and I should just re-roll.............



Pyro suffers from the exact same problem as Arsenal does: highly dependent on casted abilities. And I play Arsenal from time to time, and I put up the same numbers in either spec. Ive played all 3 merc specs extensively.

do all of our rotation except unload while moving? so we already have instant cast tracer missiles?

We can cleanse only Tech debuffs, so that limits us to only half of potential debuffs. LoSing to heal? the only way that happens is if whoever is chasing you gives up, and at that point you can just use regen and fully clear your heat at the same time.

i dont want ALL instant abilties. i want to be able to remain effective when i become under pressure, and instant cast tracer missile/power shot is the only real way to reliable do that without unintentionally un-balancing other aspects of the Merc trees.

and the reason that I suggested more changes to Arsenal is because it is in need of more help than Pyrotech is. All of these changes would have no negative effects on PvE
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads